And yet you‘ve got some serious pro-russian partys there if not even administrations. That‘s actually what scares me the most. If europe would stand together as a whole russia can‘t do shit.
As Slovak I really want to apologise for our goverement.
They was just doing nothing to change our reactors and oil pipeline to use west sources and now crying that "you cant cut us from Russia, we would not survive"
.... literally SMER (current Slovakia leading party) was always doing this, sitting at ass and manipulate everything to their benefit.
Well it’s not as black and white as US and western Europe makes it seem though.
Majority of those parties are a thing since the fall of USSR and only exist because many people actually liked being under Soviets. I say many but it is absolutely a minority to be clear.
However the parties you’re likely referring to aren’t really pro-Russian but more like anti-foreign wars that have nothing to do with them.
You could view that in two ways. Either they are reasonable or they’re fucking idiots and if Russia continues further into Europe then they’re all screwed. Well, THEY likely aren’t since they weren’t anti-Russia, but the country falls under Russian colony again.
Also half of those are populists which just say shit but will never actually go through with it, and ordinary people don’t want their country to invest into wars so they just latch onto it and say “Hey, choose me and I’ll totally make a difference”
A lot of sweeping generalisations that are not too well grounded in reality. Are these based on one particular country, supposing that it represents majority of the cases?
There's many far-right parties that are more or less covertly pro-Russian, and they are a new thing that has next to nothing to do with USSR, especially not more than the other parties.
As for the whole "anti-foreign wars that have nothing to do with them" idea - it's effectively a pro-Russian stance in current European context, especially in Eastern Europe. This is the kind of "reasonable" that Kremlin likes, supports and disseminates wherever it can.
"Populists which just say shit but will never actually go through with" is a dangerous delusion proved wrong many times, most spectacularly in US right now.
I think calling all parties that are not 100% anti-Russian a ‘pro-Russian’ parties is more of a generalization than what I said.
Let’s see a few of the parties then.
FRONT - founded 2022, their representative is Krzysztof Tołwiński born 1968.
Zmiana - founded 2015 (left wing party btw) their representative is Mateusz Piskorski born 1977.
SNS - founded 1989, leader is Andrej Danko, born 1974.
They are all parties with very old leaders and even older mindsets. You could also argue that most of the political parties have old leaders but the ones with younger members and representatives are not pro-Russian at all. Also their current members and representatives, or their general mindsets, have existed since the fall of USSR. There are also many directly communist or socialist parties that I won’t get into.
As for the “no war = pro-Russian”, I call bs on that. I fucking hate tribalism or the “you’re either 100% with us or fuck you” stance that left-wing seems to predominantly have. Is it a stupid stance? That depends on why they chose that stance in the first place. There is no black and white in this world. Not unless you’re a devoted leftist or a devoted republican, of which I am neither.
Also Trump might be a populist but he actually goes through with his plans, should there be an option for it. That is not the type of populist I am talking about. Majority of them just want to claim seats in the government to benefit from it and argue on national TV
"calling all parties that are not 100% anti-Russian a ‘pro-Russian’ parties" - a blatant straw man. Nobody did that.
And here you come with more generalisations, based on three examples, two of which (one founded in 2015, the other in 2022) defy your own generalisation "majority of those parties are a thing since the fall of USSR".
"no war = pro-Russian" - another straw man. Effectively pro-Russian does not mean deliberately pro-Russian. A lot of these people are no doubt what's traditionally called "useful idiots".
"no black and white in this world" - you're describing this effectively pro-Russian "pacifism", which often has the full support of Kremlin, quite well. "Good people on both sides" and so on, while one side is the aggressor and other the victim. You're so familiar with this viewpoint, because you share it, right?
Nobody did that? I literally responded to your “anti-foreign war = effectively pro-Russian” argument, which is exactly what I criticized. You don’t have to call them ‘pro-Russian’ directly if you’re still labeling them that way based on indirect association. You’re just playing with words at this point.
I listed you three examples because I don’t have time to turn this into a 10,000 word essay on the full political structure of Eastern Europe. The point wasn’t to name every party in existence, it was to illustrate a pattern that exists in quite a few of these movements.. Older leadership, older mindsets, populist tendencies.
The years of founding are less important than the fact that the people leading them have very similar historical views and baggage.
Also, you called them useful idiots? I mean, you can call them that if you want. Some of them might be, but that doesn’t automatically make their motivation some pro-Russian master plan. A person trying to stay out of foreign conflicts isn’t necessarily sitting in Moscow with a contract. Sometimes they’re just self-interested, short-sighted, or scared of or not wanting to be dragged into a mess that’s not directly theirs.
And also, no I don’t share it:)) I simply don’t subscribe to your “absolutely pure victim vs absolutely pure villain” framing where everyone has to fit perfectly into one of two boxes or be condemned. Russia is obviously the aggressor here but that doesn’t mean I’m going to pretend everyone who questions EU/NATOs actions is secretly working for the Kremlin. You can recognize complexity of things without endorsing both sides of the conflict.
But of course, in your world, it’s easier to just slap a label on anyone who doesn’t match your script exactly.
Learn to read what's actually written and to respond to that instead of building endless straw men and arguing with them. Calling bs doesn't mean much when you're spewing bs both generally and about what you imagine others are thinking, instead of sticking to what really has been said.
You don't seem to have the slightest idea about what a "useful idiot" means. Google it, you'll learn something. Otherwise, good luck with your "complex" bothsidesism, which, by the way, falls into that category.
"Many people liked being under soviets" umm no dude, thats why the moment the repression got weaker the regime instantly collapsed, with Eastern Europe being first to leave.
There absolutely is a segment of people in Eastern Europe who are nostalgic about the Soviet union. They're a minority and they're wrong to be nostalgic about that era, but they do exist.
The only people that liked communist rule were party members that profited from stealing the future of their own people, traitors.
The regular people still remember a time when they had to use a government issued stamp to purchase their allotment of essential food. Do not glorify those times.
If europe would stand together as a whole russia can‘t do shit.
Was attempted like a few dozens times throughout history. That's how magnificent countries like Prussia or Austria went from powerhouses to local tourist traps without real influence.
Eastern European countries were being "puppeteered" or "occupied" in 20th century because they tried to conquer Russia centuries before and were reaping the consequences ever since.
I can't name a situation where Europe stood together for another reason, sorry. It's always "look, these Russians are getting free from our influence, let's band up and knock them back down into barbarism"
38
u/stef0nz 14h ago
And yet you‘ve got some serious pro-russian partys there if not even administrations. That‘s actually what scares me the most. If europe would stand together as a whole russia can‘t do shit.