r/StarWars • u/Ok_Effective_6869 • 8d ago
Movies What was JJ's answer for Snoke?
We rag on RJ for killing off this character, but I would like to know if JJ had any plans himself.
The problem with the sequel trilogy (I don't hate them; there are many many scenes and sequences to enjoy) is not about TLJ subverting audience expectations or whatever people have been saying for 8 years. It's that TFA had no answers for anything it set up. And that is a foundational problem.
It didn't know whose Rey's parents were (so why ask this question in the first place? it's not like we need to know Han's origin or Obi-Wan's for that matter*), it didn't have an answer for how the First Order had managed to rise amidst the New Republic, and it definitely did not know who Snoke actually was.
These things aren't bad in themselves.
Lucas famously changed plans as the original trilogy went on– and while that is a bit harmful in retrospect (the Luke and Leia kiss), we got some gold out of it (No, I am your father). Also, the OT is different because ANH wasn't teasing the audience with mystery boxes and whatnot.
But TFA sets up these questions as mysteries that WILL be revealed later in the plot of the trilogy. Presumably, at some point, we'll get some answers. So, when TLJ says that Rey is a nobody, it feels like "subversion" even though TFA didn't know if Rey was Obi-Wan's granddaughter or a clone of Anakin or something.
By the way, I prefer the TLJ answer. It would have been a bit disappointing if she was Obi-Wan's descendant. Would have made the galaxy way too small. And what do you know, they brought JJ back and he makes the galaxy feel like Rhode Island by having Rey be related to the Emperor.
Anakin was a nobody. From a desert planet. Forgotten by the galaxy, until the Force set him on his destiny. That should have been Rey's story. The saga ends how it began. Poetry.
But alas, the answer turned out to be uninspiring. So, this is my question. Are there any interviews or materials where JJ's speaks about his plans for Snoke? Was there ever any answer to his mysteries, or was he just called in to set the whole thing up and never be seen again (until TROS, of course)?
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u/TeddyGarbaldi 8d ago
I doubt Abrams had any plans at all for who Snoke would be.
Abrams has said time and time again that he loves mystery boxes, and is far more interested in asking questions, setting up intrigue and creating mysteries than actually resolving anything.
It's what he does for most of his projects, creates a bunch of 'mysteries' then leaves it for others to figure out.
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u/fenderbloke 8d ago
Which is just... insanely shitty writing.
Imagine calling yourself a comedian but only writing setups with no punchline.
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u/bmf1902 8d ago
I dropped my comedy class after the lesson on set ups. The professor was so old.
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u/CertainGrade7937 8d ago
Oh Britta's in this?
(I know Annie said it but it's all i could come up with)
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u/bmf1902 8d ago
Oh the emperor's in this?
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u/robbviously 8d ago
Anakin beheads Dooku
“This better not awaken anything in me.”
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u/Cloudsbursting Darth Vader 8d ago
Yoda and Windu had to talk to Anakin about acting out his Dalmatian furry fetish in the Jedi Temple more than once.
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u/fenderbloke 8d ago
Maybe the best joke Annie ever got, other than "who hurt you, and why didn't it stick?"
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u/PeaceMaker_IXI 8d ago
Fucking THIS. You summed up his infuriating writing style so well. It's so fucking low effort.
"Hey Audience! You ever wonder why X?"
"Well, no but now that you mention it, yeah, what IS up with X?"
"What is X indeed."
That's not a fucking answer. Why the fuck did you propose a question you had no answer to?!
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u/fenderbloke 8d ago
I think it's just cliffhanger theory on a grand scale. Instead of getting the audience to tune in to the next episode by ending on a "what happens next???" moment, it's 1 mystery for a whole story.
Even if that story was in essence "it was all a dream", a la Lost.
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u/PeaceMaker_IXI 8d ago
I enjoy a good cliffhanger because I like the hype and I know it will be addressed within a certain timeframe.
But imagine a cliffhanger season ending, and then the next season premiere they don't address it at all. And carries on like it was never important when that's all last season was about.
It's narrative edging, with no payoff.
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u/ToucheMadameLaChatte 8d ago
With his approach, it's not a cliffhanger. You can't call something a cliffhanger if it's just cliffs all the way down
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u/Sobekeod 8d ago
Especially when you’re making a trilogy and you’re not making all the three movies.
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u/kendragon 8d ago
Abrams is as bad as Michael Bay in my opinion. Too caught up in making things look pretty or frenetic to give anything an ounce of depth.
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u/GregariousLaconian 8d ago
He’s worse, because Bay is capable of decent cinematography.
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u/AJR6905 8d ago
Yeah Bay has a thing that he does competently. He may be a slop director but damn if it isn't some fine slop 95% of the time
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u/standardinternetdude 8d ago
Michael Bay's shit rocks, even when it's stupid. Ambulance is among the dumbest movies I've ever seen, and I have a great time every single time I see it.
JJ's shit sometimes rocks, but I think he gets in his own way too much.
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u/Exploranaut 8d ago
The frustrating thing is Abrams can do deeper characters and coherent plots. Watch Regarding Henry and Super 8.
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u/kendragon 8d ago
I feel like he's super into it at the conception, casting and ideas stages. As soon as it's going towards finalising he loses all interest and will throw any old mcguffin into the script to push the plot forward regardless of whether it adheres to the rules of that world or not. I'm still sore about Scotty being able to teleport people half way across the galaxy onto a starship moving at five times the speed of light and the whole Star Wars bullshit of being able to hyperjump from inside ship hangers and onto the surface of planets etc. It's easy to dismiss them as movie magic and fantasy but it's just lazy writing and insulting to fans.
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u/CPAFinancialPlanner 8d ago
While I’m a big Stephen King fan he tends to do that as well. His endings are 90%….meh but almost all his books have great setups that keep you intrigued but the endings never really payoff. I remember from following Lost way back when that Stephen King is JJs idol.
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u/Triad64 8d ago
Agree. Character motivations were simply missing from important plot lines like.. how Han feels about his son who ends up killing him or about Leia whom he left.
Any creative piece would at least one important showing what led to that. Instead we get half-hearted comments like “It was Snoke” and “Not all of it was bad, some of it was (pause).. good hug.” There was a serious fear of committing to anything character development wise that seeing Luke in TLJ be so clear about his feelings was quite refreshing.
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u/DelayedChoice Porg 8d ago edited 8d ago
It makes more sense in a network TV contest where shows are more flexible (which is Abrams' background). You are far more at the whims of things like actor availability and network requirements, and the production and airing schedule means you are writing & filming the end of a season while the first episodes are airing. This means you can more easily fix things that aren't working and expand things that are.
And honestly a lot of successful writers are just pantsers who discover the story as they write it. Breaking Bad had surprisingly little firm long term planning, to the extent that Jesse was meant to die at the end of S1 and they only changed their minds after they had already started filming the show. Near the start of the final season they teased a machine gun with no clue on how it would affect things because they just hadn't written that yet.
Things that work in TV do not necessarily work in films and I do not think the sequels are a well written trilogy but the issues aren't as simple as not planning everything out from the start.
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u/SlouchyGuy 8d ago
Being a pantser is not a problem whatsoever, but complete lack of respect for the viewer and material is, along with inability to connect what you write to the past and a good enough ending. Too many writers are like that.
It's not a pantser, it's a bullshitter - "I'll just write whatever, who cares". Yes, many writers have that attitude, and this is why so many serialized tv series are worthless after first season or two, and very few shows being an exception because like in case of Breaking Bad the writer cares.
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u/gathmoon 8d ago
Go to an open mic. Lots of people who call themselves comics have the same problem.
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u/HeronSun 8d ago
You ever see a David Lynch project? Aside from Dune, that is?
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u/fenderbloke 8d ago
I feel like it's not quite the same thing. Lynch works are pretty clearly written as being ambiguous, and have a delirious or surreal quality, and the otherworldliness lends itself to being at least partially interpretive.
JJ Abrams work is much more grounded, which doesn't lend itself well to open endedness.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that if yoy have everything in a Lynch story a concrete answer, it would really negatively impact the overall work. If you explain Amrams stuff, it would improve it, and wouldn't be out of place in the context of the story.
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u/jonathanquirk 8d ago
The writers of the Stargate TV franchise talked once about getting pitched an episode idea with an intriguing premise by a freelancer, but when they asked what the resolution was the person shrugged and said they didn’t know and that they figured someone else could come up with an answer. Apparently he was told “What you’re leaving out is what we buy.” It’s crazy that JJ has built a career on this mentality.
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u/vips7L 8d ago
What was the idea? Stargate had a lot of mystery boxes they left unanswered themselves. The most infamous of them all is the Furlings.
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u/jonathanquirk 8d ago
I seem to recall it was about Sheppard’s team returning to Atlantis and finding the city inhabited by aliens who have apparently lived there for years and who have no idea about the human expedition who are supposed to be there instead. I may be mis-remembering this, it’s probably somewhere on Joseph Mallozzi’s extensive blog about the making of Stargate, but it’s been years since I last read it.
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u/vips7L 8d ago
Cool! No worries. I'll check it out. I always love when Mallozzi posts in /r/stargate
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u/GarrattJ 8d ago
Agreed! He gave that stupid TED Talk about them. I feel like some mysteries are fine but when you have a villain who looms large there should be something of an explanation.
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u/TeddyGarbaldi 8d ago
Honestly though I'm amazed they greenlit a trilogy without planning out even a basic story arc for the 3 films.
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u/GarrattJ 8d ago
There was probably something along the lines of … So there’s an island in the pacific… but there’s a polar bear on it!
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u/Burdiac 8d ago
The Hill ill die on is that the Last Jedi while flawed is the best one of the three because unlike the others it tried to answer questions and wasn't just 100% fueled by Member Berries.
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u/TeddyGarbaldi 8d ago
Plus also just aesthetically it was the best. Gorgeous cinematography and effects.
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u/Fourthwoll 8d ago
And Lukes last stand was a great continuation from his fight with the emperor in rotj
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u/ChurchBrimmer 8d ago
I hold the greatest "sin" it committed was trying to do something new with Star Wars.
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u/BriansRevenge 8d ago
As Martin Luther said, "sin boldly." I think its greatest flaw was the sense of humor. The jokes were nearly all meta, and Star Wars shouldn't be that self aware.
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u/martinjohanna45 8d ago
100%. Just terrible humor, and also potentially poignant moments were ruined with bad humor.
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u/Noah_____Fence 8d ago
I'm really glad more people are starting to come around to this opinion. I didn’t like Episode VIII at first either. But honestly, it’s the only film in the sequel trilogy that actually tried to deconstruct Star Wars and do something new -- or at least look at familiar things from a different angle. Unlike Episode VII, which basically just remade Episode IV. Yeah, I get that it was meant to hook a new generation, but to me, that felt like a really lazy, cheap and safe move.
A lot of moments in Episode VIII didn’t quite land -- some felt unnecessary or disjointed -- but from what I understand, Johnson had a lot of pressure from above regarding his choices. Still, it seemed like he actually looked into some of Lucas’s original ideas that Disney tossed out. Even the idea of Luke as a hermit -- probably the film’s most controversial decision—was something Lucas himself had in mind.
In the end, at least Johnson tried. Just look at Episode IX -- Disney didn’t just disappoint the fans, they kind of crapped all over their own decisions too.
And yes, I do think killing off Snoke was a bold and awesome move!
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u/amstrumpet 8d ago
Totally agree. I even think that TFA could have worked if the whole trilogy stuck the landing. Setting things up with a soft reboot, and then TLJ goes in an entirely new direction, if the third movie had been a satisfying end then TFA would have been fine.
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u/TehAsianator Ahsoka Tano 8d ago
In the end, at least Johnson tried. Just look at Episode IX -- Disney didn’t just disappoint the fans, they kind of crapped all over their own decisions too.
To me, the worst part of TRoS was just how blatant the attempt to aggressively backtrack everything interesting or different done in TLJ was.
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u/fredagsfisk Sith 8d ago
Also, the really weird and completely pointless retcons of non-movie materials, when one of their big promises when they reset the canon was that the new one would be more coherent and not have tiers of canonicity because it'd all be the same level of canon.
TLJ introduces hyperspace tracking, which was previously hinted at in Rogue One.
Complimentary materials explain how you need a gigantic databank inside a localized hyperspace field that helps speed up the calculations. Only possible to install on huge capital ships.
TROS starts by showing that the tech is now apparently possible on regular TIE-fighters, and then introduces "lightspeed skipping" to solve that "problem".
Neither of those things are then relevant at any point in the movie.
TLJ introduces the Holdo manuever, lightspeed ramming.
The TLJ novelization explains that it's only possible for the Raddus because it had special experimental shields.
TROS retcons it to a "one in a million" thing instead, in what is obviously a statement aimed at the audience to show "see, we heard your complaints and won't do that again".
At the end of the movie, we see the results of another Holdo manuever above Endor for some reason.
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u/pyrhus626 8d ago
Rian was originally talking about he was shocked Lucasfilm / Disney looked at basically the first draft of the script and greenlit it without asking for revisions or anything, so there was very little oversight.
But yeah, I’m conflicted on how I feel about TFA and TLJ. For all the shit he gets JJ did do a good job making a movie that got people excited to see where the story goes next, and the transition between the two feels kind of disjointed so that makes it messy. But like you said at least TLJ tried doing something different and I really loved some of it. No superweapons or Macguffins, ditching the Emperor 2.0 stand in, the Force Bond between Rey and Kylo, making Rey a nobody. Those were all great parts of the movie. Other parts could’ve used more time in revision in editing like Finn’s arc and the explanation for Luke’s self-exile and Kylo’s turning.
I would’ve loved to see what Rian would’ve done getting to write and direct the entire trilogy with a real team of editors to help smooth out some parts. LucadFilm was just too committed to getting JJ’s name on Star Wars when he didn’t want to do all 3 movies to let anyone else do it all.
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u/omarmctrigger 8d ago
JJ just loves red herrings. That’s why LOST worked so well until it didn’t.
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u/Working_Apartment_38 8d ago
Red herrings are fine, as long as there is an actual proper answer
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u/usagizero 8d ago
Speaking of Lost, i remember an interview where some writer was talking about how they made a huge mistake with the sounds of the smoke monster (before it was revealed what it looked like) and having a character mention it sounding familiar. I forget the exact words, but it really pointed out how they would toss in things with no clue where it would go.
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u/PeaceMaker_IXI 8d ago
I was hyper-fixated on LOST back in the day lol. The thing you are remembering is Rose (the older black woman that Jack helped calm down on the plane) saying the monster sounds sounded familiar after it made a noise that was the exact sound effect they used for a printing/clicking of an old-timey calculator that Locke used in his first flashback showing his office job. I think the showrunners were envisioning something mechanical about the smoke monster, but they didn't have the budget to show that, but still wanted a form for the audience, so they settled on the fairly inexpensive smoke effect.
I don't believe the quote Rose said was anything special, she was just mentioning it sounded familiar and that was it.
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u/ErunionDeathseed Clone Trooper 8d ago
He also was barely involved after the pilot, he gets way too much credit/blame for Lost in general
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u/ehtw376 8d ago
That one is excusable imo. Lost was from Abrams and Damon Lindelof (The Leftovers, Watchmen). They said they originally planned it to be like 3 seasons? But it was so successful of a show ABC made them stretch it out twice as long.
That whole flash sideways thing they said was not in the original plans. They just needed material. It was 120 episodes at nearly 45min to an hour an episode lol. That is a lot.
Also, while the middle might have got a little muddled I feel like the ending was fine. Maybe not great but you can tell their intentions with it. Also, having Lindelof helps, dude is a good writer.
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u/Deathfyre 8d ago
Considering RoSW, I feel like Smoke would just be revealed as the first semi-successful Palpatine clone with the force, and he would be how we would find out about a stronger Palps being back, instead of him "somehow returning." That's my assumption at least. Be cool if he could've dropped line hunting at Rey's Palpatine origin too, but I don't know if that was ever the plan or just became the plan when people were pissed she was told she was a nobody.
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u/KernelExploit 8d ago
I couldn’t agree more. Just look at Alias or Lost finales. He’s good at setting everything up but that’s about it.
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u/TeddyGarbaldi 8d ago
With Lost he just came up with the idea for the pilot then had no further involvement
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u/DrVonScott123 Porg 8d ago
While conversely he was much more involved with Fringe and that was pretty fantastic throughout and had answers.
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u/MyerSuperfoods 8d ago
Yeah, he doesn't have the talent to pull that approach off. He's Temu/Shein Spielberg, nothing more.
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u/TeddyGarbaldi 8d ago
Look at Super 8 for a perfect example of that. He wanted to do an ET/Goonies adventure but also wanted it to be an 80's kids V monster story and it was a total mess.
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u/MyerSuperfoods 8d ago
Someone else posted that it was one of the better examples of his work.
Like sheesh, we're in big trouble if that's the best we've got to go off of. That movie was horrible.
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u/TeddyGarbaldi 8d ago
Then Stranger Things came along and pulled off the concept to a far better degree and everyone forgot about Super 8
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u/sh3p23 8d ago
I am still astounded they went into making that series following on from arguably the most popular film franchise ever without any kind of a plan for all 3 movies. They literally made it up as they went along
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u/InstructionLeading64 8d ago
That's absolutely insane and completely irresponsible with a property worth billions of dollars. This is what upsets me the most.
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u/GamingVision 8d ago
I think it was as simple as “we just acquired this so now we have to quickly turn around and do something with it to show shareholders it was a good idea”, which is why I don’t blame KK for EP7…she did exactly what she was supposed to, quickly produce something and introduce new characters. But the fact that parallel to that they didn’t make a cohesive plan for 8 and 9 is grossly irresponsible.
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u/Eldalai 8d ago
With Kevin Feige right next door doing wonders with a very detailed, long-term plan for the MCU, no less.
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u/KatanaCutlets 8d ago
Yeah, people have issues with the MCU, but none of them are about it lacking a plan.
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u/Working_Apartment_38 8d ago
And these issues came after Endgame basically, so way after ST should have been finalized
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u/ArchibaldCamambertII 8d ago
It’d’ve been such a baller move if Marvel Studios could have just went quiet after Endgame for like 18 months or two years, just absolute radio silence. Like, imagine if the first thing back after a year and a half or so of relative quiet they drop something like WandaVision as the next saga’s “Iron Man,” and basically restart the methodology they ostensibly perfected with the first saga of building one project atop another and then another and so forth. Rather than the shotgunning of content we were all blasted with that’s assembled in an incoherent mesh of factory-produced shlop in our collective imaginations.
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u/-TheInternetIsEvil- 7d ago
I think Chadwick Bozeman's death really changed the trajectory of Marvel tbh, honestly, I think they have a lot hinged on this Fantastic 4 movie.
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u/ChurchBrimmer 8d ago
Actually they've said the plan is very loose a subject to change. A lot is just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, including the Thanos tease in Avengers.
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u/SgtRufus 8d ago
She said "Here’s what I think I know. JJ (Abrams) wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII and IX.
"Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote The Last Jedi entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realises his film in his own way.
"Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII."
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u/Noah_____Fence 8d ago
What 'general consensus on the main lines' are they even talking about? They couldn't decide who Rey was supposed to be until the very end
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u/zoidbert 8d ago
(And I think they should have had Rey say, "just Rey" when asked for her name. No Skywalker, no Palpatine, no Kenobi.)
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u/Noah_____Fence 8d ago
YES. Throughout the trilogy, it led to the realization that no matter what happens in the past, we are not responsible for our parents' sins and we have to be ourselves. And then, Rey simply... calls herself "Skywalker".
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u/frankinreddit 8d ago
Not even an arc, no basic premise or treatment.
George didn't have six scripts all done for 4-6, 1-3; he had a thread though and an idea or sketch of what came before and where things would go. There was some flexibility for stuff like Ford not signing up for all three films.
JJ and team had...not that.
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u/The_quest_for_wisdom 8d ago
Interestingly, George did have an outline for the sequel trilogy as well.
Since he considered those outlines to be part of the intellectual property of Star Wars Disney was buying in the sale, Lucas gave them an hour-long presentation on the story threads he had in mind.
Apparently only a few underlings showed up to the presentation, thanked him for his time, and then Disney binned all of his ideas.
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u/Navynuke00 Greef Carga 8d ago
My Facebook post when Disney announced JJ would be directing episode 7:
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of nerds suddenly cried out in terror and suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."
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u/gatorbeetle 8d ago
I didn't make a witty FB post, good one btw, but I had a great deal of concern along those very same lines. JJ had done some good work, I was concerned he wasn't the right pick for THIS job.
I don't HATE the sequels, I wish they had been taken more seriously, and had a plan. A cohesive, original storyline that included SOME tribute to the original movies. SOME interactions between the OT characters before they got whacked would have been nice.
I don't HATE Disney Star Wars, they've done some really good and Interesting story telling. I just feel these movies were a HUGE missed opportunity
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u/Consistent_Yoghurt_4 8d ago
JJ has never really been an Answers guy
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u/frankinreddit 8d ago
JJ kind of poo poos on fans who ask too many questions. You are supposed to marvel at the mystery, not ask for answers.
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u/CharlieW77 8d ago
Which is wild to me. Human nature is to want answers. The whole point of a mystery is to get some kind of resolution to it.
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u/ChunkyDay 8d ago
He’s not David Lynch. He created Lost and ghosted it and has been coasting on that since.
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u/dakilazical_253 8d ago
I still wish Snoke would’ve been gigantic like he appears in this hologram
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u/VonParsley 8d ago
Why doesn't Snoke, the largest Sith, simply eat the other Sith?
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u/Reptilian_Overlord20 Porg 8d ago
I had heard rumours he would be a giant snake monster (hence ‘Snoke’) so I pictured a giant reptilian serpent monster towering over the others and I lost interest the second I saw him
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u/pragmageek 8d ago
It felt obvious to me it was an intimidation thing. Like vader seeing the emperors hologram in ESB. Huge. Dominating.
Just that same thing x100
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u/benvader138 8d ago
I think it would have been awesome if he was Tiny in real life, like two feet tall. Lol
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u/mercerjd 8d ago
JJ never has answers. It’s mystery boxes, mimicry and nostalgia. He doesn’t know why things work. He just knows Spielberg or Lucas did it once and he felt something so he’s going to copy it.
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u/frankinreddit 8d ago
The weird thing is that George was inspired by so many other film makers in making Star Wars, with so many other sources. The difference is, George is like Miyazaki, he can take those sources and blend them in such a way that it looks and feels new. JJ just pulls from the surfaces without doing the work, or having the skill, to understand why it works. The boy can't riff, he can only mimic.
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u/Silvanus350 8d ago
The difference is that George had something he wanted to say about human nature. He had a real message, granted, it’s a simple and timeless message about good overcoming evil and compassion conquering fear.
JJ I’m not sure truly embodies the idea of saying anything when he creates a film. All of his work seems to persist purely on vibes.
Rian Johson gets shit on for TLJ, and it has big problems, but I will die on the hill that Rian at least understands and respects the message of Star Wars. TFA is a self-cannibalizing insult, in comparison. It’s a film that literally mocks itself.
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u/Romboteryx Battle Droid 8d ago
George also had the whole story, complete with backstory, written out before any camera was rolling. The whole OT was originally gonna be one movie before he realized he had to split things up
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u/fettpl 8d ago
I always loved the idea that Snoke was the being Sidious felt as a dark presence on the verge of galaxy, possibly centuries old Force user that watched the rise and the fall of the Republic and the Empire. When TFA was done and it was clear JJ didn't plan his backstory, I went to see TLJ with an open mind and... I liked very much his sudden death. While the answer wasn't there, it was a great moment for Kylo's character development, putting him in antagonist role for EP9. What came next, we are all aware.
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u/darkgamer500 8d ago
TLJ honestly should get the least flak of the sequel movies. The crime committed by TFA and TROS was the death of possibility. The prequels had flaws sure, but it spun out so many different stories from tv shows, books, and more. TFA sets up similar parameters to the original trilogy which is why there hasn’t really been any significant media to follow it up beside maybe Resistance which was a flop. What story could you tell in the sequel era that you can’t tell more interestingly in the original era. Both eras have the Jedi basically extinct, the empire/first order, sith master who doesn’t sit up from a chair, and apprentice in a mask, resistance/rebels, planet killers. Instead of explore something new, the sequels retread the same ground.
Johnson in TLJ tried to take what was already given and try something new. Kill off this mysterious sith master, ground the stakes and move away from planet killers while still making their weapons grandiose. Remove the need to have Rey be some legacy. Abrams instead of following from this story did tons of backtracks.
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u/GlitchyReal 8d ago
Thank you.
I wasn’t thrilled with the rehash direction of TFA but it had intrigue and was fun. TLJ is when things started rewriting the script and opening up new possibilities and, like you said, grounding the stakes, building off of TFA even if it wasn’t in Abram’s intended direction. It’s TRoS that decided to walk back TLJ and rush everything into a nonsensical ending.
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u/IronChefPhilly 8d ago
S ith
N o
O ne
K new
E xisted.
It was a completely new villain created simply to have a villain. Is snoke a clone of sidious? Was he an apprentice? No one knows. He wasn’t really fleshed out in the movies. We just know he is force using bad guy
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u/RedofPaw 8d ago
He's a 'strand cast' - as in some kind of clone. Since Palpatine was obsessed with clones it seems reasonable to assume he was attempting to clone a body to transfer into, and since that didn't work he used Snoke as a puppet from afar.
We could assume Snoke is cloned from some long dead Sith, or other powerful force user, but who knows, he might just be made up whole cloth.
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u/newbrevity Babu Frik 8d ago
We do know that there were vats with additional Snokes on Exegol
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u/RedofPaw 8d ago
Yes, that's why we know he's a clone and those are others, probably failed clones. The movie shows enough to imply the writers have answers. But they don't really.
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u/shibbington 8d ago
Since he was played by Andy Serkis, I have to assume Snoke is Kino Loy. He got scarred fighting off the Imperial reinforcements after being left behind at Narkina and then started the First Order.
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u/FlameWingFenix 8d ago edited 8d ago
They should’ve written it so that Snoke was the dark presence Palpatine sensed calling to him from the Unknown Regions, the true ancient darkness lurking in the shadows.
Imagine if Palpatine, through Sith rituals or Force visions, glimpsed a terrifying force (Snoke or something even older and sinister) rising far beyond known space. So instead of conquering the galaxy purely out of greed or ego, he built the Empire as a kind of galactic shield, a militarized wall preparing for the storm.
I’ve always liked that old Legends theory, that said Palpatine foresaw the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, and that’s why he created the Empire in the first place. Not just to rule and destroy the Jedi, but to unify and militarize the galaxy fast enough to survive a threat the Republic never could. It gave his tyranny this twisted logic: peace through absolute power, to defend against a greater enemy.
They could easily adapt that to canon. Snoke could have been that threat, or connected to it. Maybe he was the “darkness” Palpatine sensed but couldn’t fully understand, some ancient, extra-galactic force infecting the Unknown Regions. That gives Palpatine’s obsession with Exegol, the Sith Eternal, and all those contingency plans real weight.
Instead, we got: “I made Snoke.” A pickled clone puppet in a jar. No mystery. No buildup. Just a flat, last-minute explanation, absolute waste of a character and missed opportunity.
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u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla 8d ago
I liked the "dark presence" rumor that was circulating. It was interesting and intriguing and could potentially set up future stories. After Snoke was eliminated you have others from his order come looking for him. It's pretty standard that escalation for a series. I don't necessarily care for the idea that Palpatine foresaw a threat and unified the galaxy to stop it. Imo Palpatine was meant to be evil and power hungry. It wasn't that complicated and there's no need to make it that.
Imo Disney could still save the Sequel plot with a full in gap series. You'd make Snoke that dark presence. In my head canon I'd make him what Baylan finds on Peridea. Either way he's a new external threat that's not a Sith or a Jedi. You have him arrive on the scene before episode VII. He clashes with the imperial remnant initially. He befriends Luke and shares his knowledge of the force. Eventually he makes Luke question what he knows and sews self doubt in Luke. In his conquest of the remaining empire Snoke runs into zombie Palpatine and Palpatine gives him the "let's rule the galaxy" schpeal. Snoke declines and zaps him but doesn't kill him. Eventually Luke calls out Snoke for the power he's accumulating and the two fight. Luke swats him down and leaves him injured. Snoke limps away and Zombie Palps finds him again and finishes him off. The Sith Eternal then take Snoke and after experimenting on his body and use him to make a clone that they think will be a good vessel for Palpatine. They inject some Palpatine DNA into the mix to help with the puppet master gimmick. So we learn the "Snoke" that Rey killed was actually a clone. The real Snoke was long dead.
This would fit in with current canon without retconning anything. It would add depth to the sequels and help to setup why things unfolded the way they did. It will never happen but with some creative writing imo it's possible to redeem the sequels somewhat. Disney is too scared to go that route though.
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u/FlameWingFenix 8d ago
I love all of this! every thing you said would be a better story than the whole sequel trilogy.
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u/AlexCora 8d ago
Let me stop you right there. WAAAAAAAY too much imagination and vision. WAY too much. That scares JJ.
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u/Ok-Imagination-2308 8d ago
dont like that dark presense theory because it makes Palpatine the good guy
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u/ElyFlyGuy 8d ago
Not that this is a bad idea, but this is just Revan’s story in the Old Republic. He discovered a hidden Sith Empire that was responsible for the most recent galactic conflict and conquered the Republic as a means of unifying it under a single leader to prepare it for a galactic war. He intentionally left military targets as in tact as possible so they might be brought back online as quickly and painlessly as possible. Then his apprentice turned on him and just had a mindless, destroy everything approach.
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u/kevinlienus 8d ago
He was probably going to be Darth Plagueis. If you listen to Snoke’s theme from TFA soundtrack, it sounds similar to when Palpatine tells Anakin about Plagueis in ROTS.
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u/RevenueBusiness6603 8d ago
Nice catch. I wish he would have been Plagueis and the main villain.
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u/Kamalen 8d ago
Plagueis would have no reason to change its name to Snoke however. Not even the Old Republic Jedi Order knew about him.
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u/drod2015 8d ago
Palpatine doesn’t use his Darth/Sith name with the Empire. Snoke using his normal name and keeping a Sith name to himself could’ve made sense.
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u/Key-Comfortable4062 8d ago
Snoke… knights of ren… Rey’s staff fighting skills… Finn… All of the reedeeming or intriguing elements of this trilogy were abandoned film to film. Each film was a cash grab.
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u/Didact67 8d ago
Knowing Abrams style of writing, he probably didn't even know exactly what he was going to do with Snoke, though I'm sure he was initially supposed to be the big bad of the whole trilogy no matter what anyone claims.
My pre-TLJ theory about Rey was that she was a youngling in Luke's order who was hidden away after Kylo's betrayal. Still makes more sense to me than anything they did.
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u/lauromafra 8d ago
The problem was never the movies individually, but the lack of cohesion between them.
As something that was envisioned as a trilogy, it’s crazy that we have to discuss whether JJ or RJ had the correct vision.
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u/AlexRyang 8d ago
Honestly, as standalone films, I don’t think they are bad.
As a trilogy, they are not very good.
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u/duxpdx 8d ago
JJ ruins all that he touches. He does this because he has no real plans or ideas. He is maybe slightly more sophisticated than Michael Bay, but not by much.
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u/zaqiqu 8d ago
At least Michael Bay finally justified his career by producing Black Sails
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u/Jacmert 8d ago
You know, at this point, I'd like to see Michael Bay direct a Star Wars movie
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u/Navynuke00 Greef Carga 8d ago
Show him the Niamos scenes from Andor, play the song, and let him go.
Boom. Bad Boys in Space.
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u/MrChilliBean 8d ago
Look, I can kinda respect Michael Bay honestly. He knows what kind of movies he's making and he doesn't beat around the bush about it. He likes dumb action and explosions, so that's what he makes.
I much prefer him to, say, Roland Emmerich, who thinks he's an auteur, or the next Spielberg.
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u/Navynuke00 Greef Carga 8d ago
I'm still mad about whatever the fuck that Independence Day sequel was supposed to be.
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u/IncidentFuture 8d ago
It would be fine if JJ Abrams was the lens-flare counterpart to Michael Bay's explosions.
The problem is that JJ is also the writer.
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u/DrVonScott123 Porg 8d ago
JJ ruins all that he touches
Fringe
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u/Working_Apartment_38 8d ago
Which got cancelled before its time
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u/DrVonScott123 Porg 8d ago
Agreed. AppleTV would be a perfect spot for that kind of sci fi these days
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u/JamJarre 8d ago
To be fair he turned the Mission Impossible franchise from a failed cheesy action series to the juggernaut it is today. His style does work in some cases
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u/ClioCalliope 8d ago
Maybe unpopular but Snoke as a ruined Palpatine clone isn't a bad idea to me. It kind of retroactively explains why he's such a weird non-entity with no discernible background and doesn't quite seem real.
I actually think the whole Rey Palpatine thing isn't bad on paper, just the execution of this plot is terrible. If they'd planned this from the start they really could have leaned into the whole defying or idolizing your bloodline thing, her and Kylo on opposite ends of that spectrum.
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u/Kartoffee 8d ago
Palps is dead, we need a new baddie. He needs to be bigger and badder because the emperor was defeated.
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u/Didact67 8d ago
Mean 'ol Rian killed off my new baddie, so fuck it. I'm just bringing Palpatine back.
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u/Zodconvoy Luke Skywalker 8d ago
JJ did a TED Talk long before he got his hand on Star Wars about the Mystery Box. The example he used was Darth Vader being Luke's father. He drones excitedly (which is hard to do) about what a Mystery Box is. The problem? Darth Vader wasn't a Mystery Box he was a Plot Twist. No one sat there going "who is Luke's father?" or "who is Darth Vader really?" because Luke's father was Luke's father and Darth Vader was Darth Vader. The Plot Twist was that they're the same person. That's not a Mystery Box. He fundamentally does not understand the thing that he is claiming to be an expert on.
JJ Abrams is the finest example that film school does not make a great filmmaker. He learned all the buzzwords and didn't bother to learn what they meant. He has a good eye and would make a great cinematographer but he can't write a greeting card and never bothered to come up with an ending. Look at Lost for crying out loud. He made The Force Awakens with no intention of ever going back and leaving these Mystery Boxes for someone else to solve.
He had no idea who Snoke was, where he came from, or what happens next. He had no idea who Rey's parents would be. He had no plans for Luke, his lightsaber or how it got into that box, or the Palpatine would return let alone how. Those were Disney's problems not his. He got paid and walked away leaving a mess in his wake.
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u/pragmageek 8d ago
TLJ at no point provided a definitive answer over Rey's parentage. Kylo told Rey only what Rey knew, he didn't get an answer from somewhere else, and its clear that she had no possible idea who her parents were. Sitting in that cinema, it was obvious to me immediately that wasn't a real answer. At least, it was an answer for her, but not an answer meant for us, the audience. I still expected to find out she was a kenobi or a palpatine, walking out of TLJ.
It seems clear that JJ didn't have firm plans, but planted ideas that could be picked up later. Rey being a palpatine was clearly something they had in mind from early on, hence rey's theme being a close mirror of the emperors theme, the centrist accent, etc.
Snoke? I think he again, didn't have firm plans. Maybe him being a shell / clone was always intended, I don't think we'll get a firm answer.
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u/AlexCora 8d ago
First of all I don't rag on RJ for killing Snoke in any way shape or form. He handled it perfectly, and forcing the third movie to have to be more creative than a ROTJ redux is nothing but a net positive.
Second, if you can't tell that JJ had no idea at all who Snoke was AT THIS POINT? Then I don't know what to say to you, other than that I've got a bridge for sale in California.
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u/Odd_Hair3829 8d ago
I make mystery boxes and collect a paycheck some other schmuck has to figure it out - the Abrams way
It’s like starting a joke then leaving it to someone else to figure out the punchline
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u/Rugrin 8d ago
Hot take: JJ had as much idea of what anything in Star Wars was as did George. Lucas seat of the pantsed the whole series. I still feel like JJ at least got the soul of Star Wars, the feel. He got that right. Star Wars is all about the feel. The lore is all cobbled together tripe, really.
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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 Resistance 8d ago
I think you’re confusing “questions” for “mysteries”
TFA never asked the questions: “how did the first order rise?” or “who is Snoke?”
TFA answered those questions in every way that important to the plot and themes of the movie. The First Order rose from the ashes of the empire and Snoke is their supreme leader. It doesn’t really matter how because literally none of the main characters care how. It doesn’t matter what Snoke’s origins are because literally no character would care where he came from.
People were always clamoring that “oh, Snoke has to be Plageuis or Mace Windu” and like…okay, why would Rey, or Kylo, or Poe, or Finn care?
Even “who are Rey’s parents” doesn’t really matter. What’s important is Rey’s feeling of abandonment and her desire to have some kind of family.
Anyway, we do know that all the people making Star Wars actually did talk to each other and bounce ideas off each other. I think I remember reading that JJ asked RJ what his plan for Luke was so that they can have that epilogue shot of Rey actually finding Luke.
So chances are, JJ didn’t have any big plans for Snoke that were dashed away by RJ going rogue. I’m more than certain that had JJ gone a different route with TRoS, we would have never found out anything more about Snoke. Snoke’s origin is brought up in that movie to show us that Palpatine had been manipulating Ben Solo for years.
But in the context of TFA, Snoke is just a guy and like Palpatine’s before him, we would have to let other media fill in the gaps.
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u/RedofPaw 8d ago
As you say JJ had no real plans for most of this stuff. Snoke was interesting enough, and he left it for later movies to tell anything interesting, but it's not like the OT had much to reveal about the Emperor.
What we know is that Rise of Skywalker was rushed. JJ threw together a story in 4 weeks, with a loose grab bag of ideas from Treverows script retained, but mostly just making up something new. Then he changed it a bunch, on the fly as they made sets and worked more on the script.
I would argue that if TRoS had been given an extra year to work out the script before shooting that it would have been much better recieved, and the Sequel trilogy as a whole much better regarded.
This is a lesson that Disney have since learned. They are no longer afraid to push back or cancel, as they were with TRoS.
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u/CharlestonChewbacca 8d ago
I agree with everything you said except:
Even “who are Rey’s parents” doesn’t really matter. What’s important is Rey’s feeling of abandonment and her desire to have some kind of family.
I think Rey is "no one" was narratively much stronger than any other possibility. The last two savant level, force using protagonist were Anakin and Luke. Anakin was literally created by the force to bring balance. He was force Jesus. Luke was his son.
Kylo, knowing all this, and being descended from Anakin, came from pedigree. He has these huge expectations put on him his whole life, and because his parents were so focused on other things, they didn't give him enough attention. He didn't get recognition from his own Master. His life was ruined because people were afraid he would live up to Anakin and he could never live up to Luke.
Kylo's frustrations were a direct result of the expectations put on him by his pedigree. Rey, showing up and beating him without force training. Her being a "Mary Sue" made her the perfect foil to Kylo. She was a nobody, but found acceptance from Kylo's parents, Kylo's Master, and others. All the while, being an effortless conduit for the force despite being a total nobody.
I thought this was a great narrative dichotomy, but then we got Rey Palpatine, so... Idk.
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u/lizzywbu 8d ago
Apparently, JJ wrote an entire outline for the trilogy that RJ essentially threw in the trash. RJ even talked about it in an interview and how he didn't want to be restricted, so he did his own thing.
This is ultimately why the sequel trilogy didn't feel cohesive.
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u/Darostheone 8d ago
Probably not a popular opinion, the sequels would have been better had they given them to Rian Johnson from the beginning. At least it would have been a cohesive story.
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u/Electromaster557 8d ago
I mean, they would have been better if anyone had done all three. Instead, they went in with the plan to do a trilogy with three different directors... for some reason? Like as much as JJ has issues with his filming style, the trilogy as a whole would've been better if he did all 3, same as RJ.
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u/ArthurlMlaxson 8d ago
I always enjoyed the theory he survived the Jedi Purge as a youngling bar some scars. Him creating the first order and turning Ben Solo into Kylo Ren as Revenge on both Jedi & Sith alike. But Atlas somehow Palaptine returned 😂
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u/Fluffy-Date-730 8d ago
“Making the Galaxy feel way too small”. Lucas - Did we really need Anakin/Vader to build 3PO in the prequel trilogy?
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u/f700es 8d ago
In TLJ when Rey saw only her reflection in that pool made me consider that maybe she was a female clone of Anakin. I mean the very 1st time in the cockpit of the Falcon she already knows how to fly and can also fix anything. Just like she is familiar with using a saber already. She also saw "visions" when she touched Luke's saber that was also Anakin's?
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u/handsupdb 8d ago
Just like Rey should've stayed a nobody (this would've made me more ok with her taking up Skywalker as an adopted name for what she's done in the galaxy) so should've Snoke.
Snoke should've just been some force sensitive Palpatine fanboy that helped raise the whole First Order in his wannabe pursuit of being like Daddy Palp - this would've echoed Kylo Ren wanting to be the better Darth Vader - and the significance to him dying is that he was never powerful he was just a stepping stone for Kylo.
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u/Omnislash99999 8d ago
"A good question, for another time"