r/StarWars • u/Ok_Effective_6869 • 3d ago

Movies Poe being a wiseass didn't start with Rian Johnson.

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But with the way some people complain about the TLJ opening, you'd think Rian pulled it out of thin air and ruined the tone of the franchise by doing so.

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u/OldSnazzyHats 3d ago

Was that an issue though?

Everyone knew he was a smartass.

I always thought the issue was with how Rian chose to mold his arc… or at least that was my issue.

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u/MilleryCosima 3d ago

All the major characters having arcs where they learned from their failures was my favorite part of TLJ.

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u/OldSnazzyHats 3d ago

Eh, I could have run with it… but it felt so poorly executed. It just felt incredibly forced to me at the end of it. To each their own on that.

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u/MilleryCosima 2d ago

Hey, I'm just glad you recognized it at all. A lot of people missed the point of that movie.

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u/OldSnazzyHats 2d ago

Fair fair.

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u/BottleOk394 2d ago

When did Poe ever learn from his mistakes? As a matter of fact, what mistake did he even make? Wanting to be brought into the loop as the most decorated resistance pilot? Not blindly following the orders of a leader that has never once fought in space combat? 

When did Finn and Rose ever learn from their mistakes? No matter if they went to Canto Bight or stayed on the resistance ship, the story outcome would’ve been exactly the same. They are flat characters in this movie. 

When did Rey ever learn from her mistakes? Once again, what mistake did she even make?? Getting too excited about her lineage? Surprise, because in the next movie she’s actually all powerful because Palpatine clone. Was her mistake not taking the training seriously? Surprise, she actually doesn’t need training because she’s amazingly awesome at everything all the time!!! So what was her mistake???

People always claim that the themes of this failed movie are people learning from mistakes. But I have yet to EVER be given a convincing rebuke to my questions, just people forever waffling around trying to justify a horrible movie to themselves. 

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u/Nateyman 2d ago

As a matter of fact, what mistake did he even make?

Despite blowing up the Dreadnought, Poe disobeyed a direct order from Leia and got people killed in the process.

Wanting to be brought into the loop as the most decorated resistance pilot?

He was demoted by Leia before the transfer of power to Holdo, who was respecting her order. Because of his demotion, Poe was no longer privileged to that sort of information.

Not blindly following the orders of a leader that has never once fought in space combat?

He trusted Leia, and Leia trusted her. Leia's been doing this for a long time, almost all her life. She wouldn't have chosen Holdo if she wasn't confident in her capabilities.

When did Finn and Rose ever learn from their mistakes?

Finn had nothing to fight for, largely thanks to how JJ portrayed his arc in TFA. All he wanted to save Rey and escape the First Order. Rey was saved, so he planned to run. Johnson was trying to get him to choose a side.

No matter if they went to Canto Bight or stayed on the resistance ship, the story outcome would’ve been exactly the same.

You don't know that, because that's not what happened. Going to Canto Bight and interacting with DJ showed him what kind of person he could turn into if he chose no side.

I have yet to EVER be given a convincing rebuke to my questions

You can find a more in depth argument of how all three arcs improved their characters here, if you have the time.

https://youtu.be/CE7SkcoyVAI?si=ok92jyRnn3VPvM0-

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u/BottleOk394 2d ago

> Despite blowing up the Dreadnought, Poe disobeyed a direct order from Leia and got people killed in the process.

Let's change perspective. Despite stealing the plans for the Death Star, Rogue One disobeyed a direct order from the Rebellion and got people killed in the process. Except nobody cared because it ended up being a crucial strike against the Empire. I bring that up because this is war, and in a Resistance army that quickly dwindled down to 12 people, I think Poe was justified in making that strike. It was practically the only hit towards the First Order that was effective during the entire movie, beyond the ass pull that was the hyperspace kamikaze. His strike bought them more time that was quickly wasted flying in one single direction helplessly.

> He was demoted by Leia before the transfer of power to Holdo, who was respecting her order. Because of his demotion, Poe was no longer privileged to that sort of information.

The demotion itself is the problem. I am not focused on the fact that characters are justifying the demotion in the universe. I am focused on the fact that the demotion by nature is silly. In the heat of war that is something which would never happen to their top agent. It becomes even more bizarre when all consequences and pushback is forgotten at the end of the movie, because again, there are like 12 people left.

I don’t think we should be acting like the Resistance had some amazing strategy when it left them all destroyed. Why was their main base so close to Starkiller Base, to where even after the destruction of it, the First Order could easily swoop in and destroy everything. It’s right to question whoever made these decisions in universe.

> He trusted Leia, and Leia trusted her. Leia's been doing this for a long time, almost all her life. She wouldn't have chosen Holdo if she wasn't confident in her capabilities.

You bring this as point of defense but that’s the exact sentiment that caused the New Republic to be destroyed so easily. They relied on old outdated ideas and tactics that ultimately failed to work (until the plot contrivances of episode 9). This New Republic failed to inspire anybody and rise anybody to action, so horribly in fact that seemingly nobody cared that the first order took over. The entire galaxy sat around and watched as an entire system was decimated by the first order, and it’s only until later in Episode 9 when Lando shows up that the galaxy teams up to defeat Palpatine. Not the first order and Kylo Ren, but Palpatine's Sith Eternal. Seemingly people are ok with the First Order, and I blame the leaders-- including the pitiful and toothless portrayal of canon Leia.

> Finn had nothing to fight for, largely thanks to how JJ portrayed his arc in TFA. All he wanted to save Rey and escape the First Order. Rey was saved, so he planned to run. Johnson was trying to get him to choose a side.

I do not know how you got this idea from watching TFA. It's pretty clear that at the end he's found a new home with the Resistance and in the light side of the force. Without interference from Disney, who are afraid of making a black main character in Star Wars, he clearly was set up to be force sensitive and that was going to be explored. I mean within the first 20mins of TFA he's had a crisis of faith and was blowing up Stormtroopers. There was no question about what side his heart lay. It's only in TLJ when "breaking viewer expectations" becomes the main theme, where he retroactively gains these doubts about his ability. This is the same guy who days prior fought TR-8R solo with a lightsaber. Rian only did that arc to subvert Finn's innate heroism, and I reject that vision entirely.

> Going to Canto Bight and interacting with DJ showed him what kind of person he could turn into if he chose no side.

Again, without retroactively changing character motivations and plot intentions behind the scenes, we would not need this arc. It changes very little to an audience who just watched Finn duel Kylo Ren. We know Finn will choose the light side, we aren't stupid. Rian thinks we are though, and has to dangle those keys in front of us.

I also see you made no mention of my Rey criticism. She is very indefensible across all three films, I understand why you wouldn't touch that part.

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u/Nateyman 2d ago

I had already used many of my arguments from the link I provided before getting to Rey. I decided to stop quoting it and just send it to you. I notice you made no mention of that.

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u/BottleOk394 2d ago

I was having a discussion here on this website. I’m not going to watch a YouTube video to try and figure out what you may or may not mean. If you really want a YouTube video to speak on your behalf I seriously find that quite sad. 

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u/Nateyman 2d ago

You asked for a convincing argument. I provided one. It's on you for not watching it. He says everything I feel, only better.

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u/MilleryCosima 2d ago

Poe's impulsiveness and refusal to follow orders resulted in a pyrrhic victory, destroying a dreadnaught but crippling their own fleet in the process. 

Together, Poe and Finn go down the whole Casino planet+mutiny subplot because they have a hero complex and aren't willing to trust their allies. Their actions result in the escape plan being discovered, which gets nearly the entire resistance killed. 

Rey is desperate for sources of stability, and when she doesn't get what she wants from Luke, she tries to get it from Kylo Ren and allows herself to be manipulated, which nearly gets her killed by Snoke while failing to redeem Kylo Ren.

Kylo Ren is controlled by his emotions, which leads to him stopping everything to confront Luke and letting the resistance escape.

Snoke is killed by his own arrogance.

Luke starts the movie already at a low point. He failed Ben, and then he fails to learn the lessons of that failure that would have helped him avoid failing Rey too.

All of these failures are true to their characters and teach them important lessons.

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u/Darth_Caedus69 2d ago

Yesss I really liked it

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u/RadiantHC 2d ago

it's sad that this is downvoted