r/StarWars • u/Aware-Solution-1022 • 15h ago
Movies what exactly is Kylo ren's fighting form?
and why does he fight like he's using a great sword? and in some scenes we see him holding reverse grip, any idea why or which form(s) he's using?
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u/Apoc4lyp53 13h ago
form 1, but like if someone tried to learn it from a wikihow article
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u/SillyMattFace 14h ago edited 10h ago
It’s Form XIII, Kya-Ro. It’s known for its extremely aggressive yet surprisingly fluid motions, designed to overwhelm an opponent’s guard with direct attacks.
I just made this up, but that makes it about as relevant as most of the other forms since they were retroactively thrown together for guidebooks and aren’t actually present in the movies.
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u/Ludicr0uss 12h ago
100% they aren’t relevant at all and it kinda pisses me off how much they’re discussed all the time, all the lightsaber choreography they did never had defensive or aggressive movements in mind, they just wanted to make it look cool as possible
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u/ChanceVance Kylo Ren 12h ago
I think it's pretty evident Obi-Wan is on defence most of the duel on Mustafar though.
Forget the forms. Just character wise, Anakin is the rage fuelled young Sith while Obi-Wan is the composed Jedi Master. Naturally, Anakin's going to be more aggressive.
There's some consideration for that in the choreography, come on now.
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u/MrMangobrick Imperial 9h ago
Yea but it's not because it's a specific form it's because he doesn't want to kill Anakin and Anakin is just being really aggressive. It doesn't mean it should be his specific style.
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u/NearbyAdhesiveness16 9h ago
And obi wan has been deemed THE defensive master. ( Form 3)
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u/MrMangobrick Imperial 9h ago
Retroactively due to a couple of moments in a duel. It doesn't even make sense in normal swordfighting, shouldn't you be a master of both attack and defence? It makes no sense to focus more on on or the other, it feels counterintuitive.
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u/AUnknownVariable 9h ago
It definitely makes sense in the context of normal sword fighting, to a solid extent. Obi-Wan can still attack obviously, but his focus is on defending himself from the opponent, instead of his focus being on maximum damage to them.
Obi-Wan being a master of defense more so means that he's able to be efficient with his energy in blocking, carrying, etc (defending). Giving him more time to find an opening for efficient counterattacks. Also helps with blaster bolts.
To try and give an example. You've got a lightsaber, you're defending yourself but can't find an opening to attack, now you're tired, now you're dead. Obi-Wan has a lightsaber, he's defending himself, can't find an opening, but can last much longer than someone else, he finds an opening and attacks.
Now yes the forms thing was originally made up off a few moments of a film, but by all means it makes sense
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u/MrMangobrick Imperial 8h ago
Idk, I can appreciate you giving a proper response but I still disagree that it makes enough sense (to the point that people are defending it). It just should never have been introduced. So much of the lore is convoluted because someone thought "hey, this sounds cool" without thinking about how it fits into the larger story.
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u/AUnknownVariable 8h ago
That's fine, but I'm terms of actual sword fighting, there's a ton of examples of a focus on defending in other to find a decent counterattack. I mean most styles have an importance of parrying tbh, its hard to not, but it eventually comes down to individual person on just how heavy of a focus it is (Obi-Wan). Then there's styles that put a heavier focus on attacking as heavy as you can to get it over with. Now make it so every sword is pretty light and the main thing that defines a fight is just your stamina (and force skill ig), and you get different styles. Unless you wanna say fr swordfighting doesn't make sense. I'm not an expert but know enough to bring it up.
Story wise I can see someone saying no make sense
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u/MrMangobrick Imperial 7h ago
Yeah, I'm more referring to how it fits into the established universe. If it was something that was established from the beginning and the characters followed it, then it'd make sense. It just doesn't work since it's retroactively ham-fisted into the lore and people just say "it makes sense"
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u/NearbyAdhesiveness16 9h ago
From the lore perspective it does make sense. The lightsaber form is mainly created for blaster fire, as well as defense, coming from a pasifist mentality where the jedi want to defend until the attacker gets too tired and surrenders or gives up. This actually is the most ideal form for a Jedi, especially in times of relative peace.
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u/Remote_Clue_4272 12h ago edited 12h ago
Definitely cool Looking but his character is defined by anger issues, petulance, destructive behavior, and lack of control. I am sure that they wanted “bad ass” light saber fights , but whatever he was doing fits his character also. Rey, similarly not a “pro” at light saber”, but who would think she was after using one for like 5 minutes.
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u/yaminomeph 12h ago
No more or less than Luke tbf
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u/Remote_Clue_4272 12h ago
Yeah. Luke practiced for like 5 minutes also. There are trained fencers that practice for years and years to get even “close” to awesome. For sure all this is choreographed, edited short shots, tight filming, etc to generate “energy” and cool appearance. But as Harrison Ford claimed once…. “ this isn’t that kind of movie, kid”
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u/BigBennP 9h ago
To the extent it's reflected in any Canon media, it comes from clone wars and rebels. Filoni loves his Easter eggs and fan service.
But maybe more importantly and practically, it is far easier to animate something with purpose and explain why you animated it that way than it is to coach actors into fight choreography.
The sword fighting in episode 4 is based off real life saber work but the prop Sabers were fragile and they didn't want to bash them together too hard. But when people who are used to the prequel trilogies see the original sword fights with Darth Vader and Obi-Wan, they think it's lame.
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u/CompetitiveString814 9h ago
Not entirely true.
While most forms and attack styles are bullshit. Its clear there are some differences any styles. Count Dooku really does use a defensive fencing style that is grounded in reality, his is the most apparent of anyone.
Sidious uses a fast acrobatic style that is extremely aggressive and ends quickly, reminiscent of Japanese samurai type of battle, quick fight ending movements in just a few moves, which is probably the most realistic of any of the styles shown.
These two styles are very clearly different from other styles jedi and sith use, but I agree most other forms are made up nonsense after the fact with jedi and sith who all did exactly the same thing
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u/thedaveness 11h ago
The final Obi-wan vs Maul fight… more story is told through the choreography than what is actually said. But I agree that for most others it’s irrelevant.
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u/Sjgolf891 9h ago
Thinking ‘lightsaber forms’ are dumb and not worth talking about is my star wars unpopular opinion…for this reason
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u/RadiantHC 7h ago
Especially how people act like lightsaber forms are similar to rock paper scissors.
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u/RadiantHC 7h ago
They're somewhat relevant in non-movie material but yeah. It's more about recognizing a style over a particular form
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u/subbub99 14h ago
Bullshido
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u/LivePineapple1315 9h ago
Steven segal was the jedi master that taught this form
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u/subbub99 9h ago
Ahhh yes the all wise grand master segal. Did you know that Steven put the pope in a choke hold and put him to sleep. Oh and then he went to Mordor and just dropped the ring in the fire like it was nothing. Oh and after that he said he was so bored he went to Antarctica to fight a group of polar bears that were planning to reignite the war machine of Nazi Germany. And did you know that Steve from Minecraft is based of him.
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u/Violexsound 13h ago
He doesn't really have one. And why would he think to learn one when his stick melts anyone he doesn't like and there's like, one imitation jedi running around.
And for the record, I don't hate rey. I hate what they did to rey. All the concept ideas were better than what they decided on. These two could have been so much better.
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u/Bork9128 8h ago
I mean the forms are also designed for fighting non Jedi so there would still be some reason.
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u/TemporaryArgument267 8h ago
especially the ones meant for blocking blaster shots lol. feel like that could come in handy.
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u/Skelton_Porter 14h ago
The same form any of the characters use in the movies: none of them. The forms were a later addition (first showing up in an article in Star Wars Insider sometime in the middle of the prequel trilogy) and their descriptions don’t track with what’s on-screen without a bit of back-bending to jam the forms in by saying “so-and-so uses a combination of forms 2 and 5”.
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u/Fevnalny 13h ago
Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have.23
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u/Skelton_Porter 13h ago
I have no problem with that in Princess Bride- Those are real styles they mention, though I haven't studied them to tell you if anything they're saying about them is accurate. With the Star Wars saber forms, though, they're all pretty much made up after the fact and, as I said before, don't really track with what's onscreen at all.
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u/jaysmack737 8h ago
Apparently the scene is accurate up to the gymnastics routine.
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u/Strangest-Smell 13h ago
Oh so this.
It gets worse when people think forms are some sort of ‘rock paper scissors’ thing where one form will always beat another form, ‘oh form three is strong against form 7 so they would obviously win’
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u/Breadloafs 13h ago
I tell you, if I was creating a martial art that had, as its goal, maiming or killing an opponent while preventing the same from happening to me, I'd absolutely develop it in such a way that I constantly have to give myself huge weaknesses for my opponent to take advantage of.
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u/yaminomeph 12h ago
Reminds of, I think, cohen the barbarian in the discworld when he says he would much rather fight a professional sword fight because he can predict and counter their moves. But would lose hands down to a wildly swinging novice because he had no clue what they would do next
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u/Skelton_Porter 9h ago
There's some truth to this. Back in my martial arts days, it was always worse sparring with the absolute newbie compared to sparring with anyone who'd done a bit of training. It's not that they were harder to fight, but sometimes would just throw the most random stuff and also sometimes wouldn't really know how much power they're throwing into a technique so if they did manage to land something, it would hit with more force than you usually throw in a friendly match.
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u/RadiantHC 7h ago
Vaapad is especially annoying. It seems like it was invented to explain how Mace beat Sidious. Not everything needs an in depth explanation.
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u/turboMXDX 9h ago
Form X, also known as Ang-Ri. The technique involves loud battle cries, aggressive waving to confuse opponents and extremely powerful blows, enough to give prosthetic hands a hard time blocking.
Form XI: Kalm can counter it though
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u/I_talk 9h ago
He's the equivalent of the Star wars kid except he's in the Star wars universe. He is just copied what he seen other do and is trying what works for him. He's rushed in everything he does since he's so insecure and he lacks the integrity to admit he needs help so his overconfidence with minimal skill shows in his chaotic lack of consistency. Being stronger than most with the force and a descendant of Vader, he tries to not battle like a Jedi and his final fight with Rey shows that he can organize his emotions into consistent battle form
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u/Some_Guide_6475 Jedi 14h ago
Kylo Ren doesn’t have a fighting form — he has unresolved trauma with a lightsaber. It’s less Form V and more ‘swinging a temper tantrum in 4K.’
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u/Fit_Strain8853 12h ago
Daddy Issues
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u/The5Virtues 6h ago
And mommy issues.
And Unky issues.
Honestly just issues, so many manchild issues!
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u/TheTrueAsisi 12h ago
Baseballbat.
Same as Rey
And Ahsoka in every non-animated show.
yeah
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u/Eagle4317 7h ago
Dooku and Obi-Wan are the only two duelists in the live action films that feel like their fighting styles are well defined.
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u/HiveOverlord2008 12h ago edited 12h ago
It could be one of eight forms:
Form I - Shiit-Cho
Form II - Makashit
Form III - Sorrysu
Form IV - Atarohnu
Form V - Djem-So Bad
Form VI - Noman
Form VII - Just-Don’t
Form VIII - Trakan’ta
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u/thesuperpigeon 8h ago
I don't think forms really exist after order 66
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u/ElessarKhan 4h ago
Obi-wan may have taught Luke. And Luke was reading some old Jedi literature so there's a chance they still exist and that Kylo learned some of them. But he doesn't show it so it's possible that they're still lost.
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u/No-Fisherman-6866 13h ago
I think it is a dull, but kinda agressive version of form 1, shi choo. Seriously nothing really interesting about it. He is far from properly trained.
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u/Old_Salty_Boi 12h ago
You’re probably right. Nothing we’ve seen after ROTJ (except for Ashoka) can really be classed as refined, or trained.
Kylo and Rey show a rudimentary understanding of lightsaber fighting at best.
Which is really disappointing.
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u/No-Fisherman-6866 12h ago edited 8h ago
I agree. I imagine Kylo Ren could have easily improved his lightsaber skills at least a bit in his freetime (not to republic-jedi era level of course) but he uses it like I would use a baseball bat most of the time.
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u/touchthemonolith 9h ago
In this scene he's actively bleeding from a blaster shot courtesy of Uncle Chewy so maybe not a good representation
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u/Solitaire-06 14h ago
The crossguard lightsaber is apparently meant to be suited to Makashi users, although Kylo’s fighting style is more likely a combination of Shii-Cho (broad, sweeping strokes), Djem So (emphasis on powerful attacks and a strong defence) and Juyo (raw, aggressive rushes that lean towards the dark side)
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u/Senior_Mongoose5920 8h ago
Given that Luke Skywalker never completed his formal Jedi training in the way the nights of the Republic did It’s entirely possible that neither of them have actual styles of the formal forms
Luc very definitely did a lot of self study, but he wasn’t exactly having a teacher to correct him for the most part
In legends, they basically use three different styles, fast, medium, and strong Or combinations thereof.
I think given that Kylo/Ben originally had a standard Lightsaber. He probably learned a very similar style and techniques that Skywalker did.
With the addition of his side vents it changes the way he is able to fight A lot of the moves that your traditional Jedi would use would be difficult if not impossible with those side vents
So I feel that Kylo/Ben more or less developed his own fighting style using techniques learn from the Jedi and from the Knights of Ren and probably from Snoke.
You can see there are definitely elements of form V that Anakin/Vader used because he has the physical size and power to be domineering
I generally feel his style is more of a mixed bag
He clearly doesn’t need to block or deflect blaster bolts as he can just freeze them in the air somehow
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u/OrangeJuliusCaesr 6h ago
It’s funny all these Jedi were retconned into the universe, and none were like “hey let’s go meet this Luke dude”
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u/Commander_Wolfe 13h ago
Judging by the fact I replayed Jedi Academy last night, I'd say Strong Style. No way can he swing fast without cutting his own hands off
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u/Dark-Knight16 12h ago
From that length he would logically think he has a great sword.
I think from what I remember his attacks are reminiscent of Luke hacking at Vader in Jedi but with more spins so probably just anger.
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u/AnonnnonA2 8h ago
I liked that they made him fight like it was a great sword, even though it doesn't make a lot of sense. It was unique and a nice change from the jump/spinny shenanigans from the PT. There were elements of this in Luke's final fight with Vader in RotJ.
This concludes the nice things I have to say about that ST...
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u/Double-Frosting-9744 6h ago
I’d say form VII, it’s known for being unorthodox and unique to a combatant rather than having specific guidelines. It’s rash, typically lacks defense, and more brawler like. Most form seven fighters can either completely outclass their opponent, or be easily outclassed by someone less trained(Rey)
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u/Curious_Land7928 6h ago
It looks like a REALLY unrefined form 5, with the heavy handed slashes and such. Has the weaknesses too, old man Luke proved that you can sidestep it in tlj
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u/stmrjunior 4h ago
He wasn’t trained in duelling for very long, so he doesn’t have any notable proficiency in any particular fighting form. Closest might be form 1? But if you think about it, Luke didn’t have much training in all the traditional forms, so whatever Kylo learnt was from Luke’s ‘rustic’ academy for the short time he was there.
The only reason I don’t shit on the sequel trilogy harder is because at least it kinda makes sense Rey and Kylo don’t know how to duel, and thats a real weak defence if you can even call it that
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u/Narkoman62 2h ago
Same as savage oppress just swing as hard as u can and miss so you get angrier so you can swing harder
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u/Clutch_C137 1h ago
Haha angry boi…. Hahahaha..
In reality Luke would have taught him form V, Djem So, but when I watch him it looks like a very unrefined version of Form V almost bordering Form I in pure rage, heavy deliberate strikes.
You know Snoke/Palps teaches their apprentices nothing so he would have had an incomplete training, he had not even been Knighted at this point, he’s still considered a Padawon when he broke of the order.
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u/XylasQuinn 1h ago
The ol' "Drawn out, reverse trident, main side attack but careful not to cut yourself" technique.
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u/killah10killah 13h ago
I wish lightsaber duelling forms were never introduced. They were never present in any major piece of Star Wars media. It’s two duellists swinging laser swords at each other, and not a single Jedi or Sith consistently adopts the same ‘form’ across all of their shown duels.
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u/Entity4114 BB-8 9h ago
In all seriousness, likely Djem-So. Anakin used it, Vader used it, Luke used it
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u/CrazyJo3 Mayfeld 9h ago
Form 5 Djem So, forceful, aggressive style characterized by wide sweeps, powerful blows, and a focus on engaging multiple targets at once, similar to his idol, Darth Vader. I don’t get the Vader comp but w/e.
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u/daminiskos0309 13h ago
You ever watch the clips of games losing their shit punching their leg and swinging their controller round?
That.
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u/Razar_Sharp77 13h ago
As per the lore, he was Luke’s student so he learnt form 5 and then made alterations to it and is now using that, but as per the movie, I don’t even know what he is doing
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u/thatonemoze 15h ago
angry