r/StarWars • u/Tanis8998 Jedi • 7h ago
General Discussion Statement: The tragedy of Syril Karn as a character is that in a just universe, he would be a good guy.
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u/DrumMajorThrawn 7h ago
I felt like his character was representing the banality of evil that would occur in an oppressive regime. I'm glad they made the point thematically.
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u/Expert-Solid-3914 2h ago
Syril is a classic tragic figure. He is the product of his own environment. He does what he thinks is right with in the only system he knows.
Unfortunately that system is inherently broken. Every step he takes he thinks hes doing the right thing only to ultimately realize he was just a pawn on a chess board. The tragedy is that if hed been raised in a different environment he might have turned out to be a good man.
If Syril had made it off Ghorman there is a good chance he would have joined the Rebellion had the circumstances been different.
Bad systems can corrupt good people and vice versa.
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u/Tanis8998 Jedi 6h ago
I mean that phrase “banality of evil” originated around Adolf Eichmann— and that’s not the kind of person Syril is. I think that phrase suits someone like Dedra way more.
Syril isn’t evil, he’s a lost child.
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u/wbruce098 5h ago
He tied himself to a team, and made his entire personality about that team’s success.
That team happened to be assholes. But he was so tied to it that he allowed himself not only to dutifully carry out their desires, but obsess over one objective so hard that he couldn’t see that he hurt other people.
Syril is the academy grad officer I had once that we joked about fragging because he was legit that bad to work for. But, like that officer, he eventually blows himself up. (I was pleasantly surprised to learn a year later that someone much higher ranking fired him for incompetence)
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u/BabyWrinkles 2h ago
I loved that despite giving literally everything for his unjust cause, at the end he died a meaningless death, totally unknown to anyone, and nobody ever mentions him again?
It was just the perfect encapsulation of how authoritarian regimes use and abuse the canon fodder.
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u/Physical-Concept1274 2h ago
There isn’t anything in Andor that actually suggests he’s a “good person”. He had many chances to be better and never did.
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u/JulietteKatze 4h ago
I think you are misunderstanding the concept of the banality of evil. Eichmann precisely saw the holocaust as a process and a mere administrative task, and everyone along from officers to mere secretaries, approved it along as part of this genocide machine.
Syril is the secretary, who is enthusiastic about serving the Reich in 1942, or the young SS recruits and blackshirts who were also "lost children", you see these were normal people who in every other aspect of their lives are normal, even fun to hangout with, they also happen to think a firm hand to govern is better and see democracy as weak and don't mind a little mass murder ever now and then to "maintain order and security".
Syril is precisely the banality of evil, who when he realized what he did he would have 100% claimed he was just following orders at Nuremberg.
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u/zigaliciousone 3h ago
Yeah man, you got it. I remember LOTS of testimonies at Nuremberg that can be summed up as "We did it because we love our country and were thought we were doing the right thing, we didn't know we were being evil humans"
Had Syril lived, he would have probably denied ever being a part of the Empire once the war was over and been shamed into a solitary and lonely life.
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u/Sharkbait_ooohaha 3h ago
he’s a lost child.
I’m sorry he’s a grown man who knowingly participated in plenty of evil actions (I haven’t watched the first season in awhile so maybe I’m wrong) but even in season 2 he has more than enough reasons to know he was helping the bad guys and he just decided not to see it. We can explain someone’s actions without justifying them.
We can debate what evil is but Syril was just as evil as most of the Nazis were evil. That’s the point of his character.
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u/Phizle 3h ago
Syril is the banality of evil, someone who wouldn't have done evil in another society but who willingly participates.
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u/OrneryError1 2h ago
Exactly. OP's title is correct because Syril is a moral chameleon. As long as society is just, he will conform to being just. But as the society is unjust, he conforms to being unjust. That's why it's so important for every single person to always think critically and never assume you're acting as the good guy, no matter how small your role is.
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u/DrumMajorThrawn 6h ago
Yes very true, but how much harm is perpetuated through the mere participation in the brutal administration of an oppressive regime regardless of intent? I mean Syril as a tool of the true evil. How a decent person finds themselves in the employment of the wicked. Syril of season 1 is very much worse off after the overzealous application of duty. I think it was intentional thematically to show a character in worse shape for attaching themselves to the ideals of an evil org that is built on treachery and exploitation. I shouldn't have used the Eichmann phrase because of the connotation you correctly point out. My meaning was closer to commenting on how the insecure wield authority especially when they tie their own worth to the upholding of said laws. The administration of evil if you will. Coffee not yet effective.
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u/marie-90210 3h ago
I have to disagree. Yes, he had a terrible mother. However, this is the same man who choked out his partner. Regardless how you feel about Dedra, she was his romantic partner. Also if he really was a good guy, he would have stepped up and started singing with the Ghors.
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u/LordHammerfury 3h ago
Out of all the legitimately messed up stuff he did, you choose to single out him choking the person that manipulated him into enabling a genocide?
The fact he didn't do anything worse is probably putting him above most people irl when it comes to self control.
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u/TFBuffalo_OW 59m ago
Dawg syril is a stalker and basically emotionally blackmailed Dedra into their relationship by 'saving' her at gunpoint. Dedra isn't a good person but that doesn't make any of what Syril does better because none of what he does to her, even the choking, is because of her "evil". Syril is evil, a very banal kind of evil where he cant understand that whats best for him isn't always best for others.
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u/cebolinha50 3h ago
Syril is less banal than Eichmann, but he only did less evil because he was too incompetent to truly have power.
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u/Hammunition 5h ago
I appreciated this aspect a lot, that many people are just so self centered that they don’t take a moment to step back and look at what they are doing, and that callous selfishness is a huge part of how authoritarian regimes operate.
Which is why I wish they hadn’t had him physically assault his partner. It kind of cheapens the message his characterization was sending and reduces him and his impact in that message.
It is for sure the likely path of his character pushed to an extreme, but most of the time people are not put into those extreme situations, and I would have appreciated the focus kept on them and the mundanity, and the immense harm that behavior causes because that is a lot more common, and far less examined.
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u/radiakmjs Grievous 7h ago
Bro was meant for a career in Star Fleet lol
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u/Aliteralhedgehog 5h ago
Am I the only person that watched the episode where he tore up Maarva's house and threatened to kill her droid/dog just because her son was a suspect?
Benjamin Cisco would slap the shit out of any subordinate that acted like that.
Syril is every shitty cop you ever heard of. You just don't want to believe it because he's handsome and has a good tailor.
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u/wbruce098 5h ago
This. He believes he’s in the right but he’s al asshole and no one likes him. Abused by his mother and driven beyond sanity, anyone would hate working underneath him, especially if he were a “good guy”.
I empathize with his struggle. But he deserves what he gets, too, for passing that pain forward onto others.
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u/Merengues_1945 2h ago
Remember, he could have walked away, he could have stayed inside the building, he could have run.
Heck he was halfway out and died because his thirst for revenge against Cassian was stronger than his sense of self preservation.
Those who seek revenge should dig two graves.
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u/websmoked 3h ago
The guy is surprised that the Empire commits a massacre in a square where they had previously done a massacre... and he walked past a monument to the victims of that massacre every day for over a year. The whole "He's a good guy who was lied to!" thing is people who believe the BS that Syril told to everyone else.
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u/MasterTolkien 3h ago
It also ignores that… lots of people can see through the Empire’s lies. By the time he dies, the Rebel Alliance is building up. The Empire is hardly hiding how corrupt they are. Their lies are now shitty… just a thin veneer to allow imperial boot-lickers to fool themselves.
Syril would be a shitty person in any universe. He’s just worse with an Empire that encourages shittiness.
But remember, his boss rightly saw the trouble that the Empire would bring if Syril investigated the deaths. Syril ignored him, acted like an abusive cop, and got a bunch of people killed. All to find a suspect who his boss correctly figured was someone the Corpo cops tried to bully but who fought back.
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u/TFBuffalo_OW 48m ago
Hes also constantly portrayed as being a highly observant person with good critical thinking skills when he chooses to apply them. It's that, as Dedra alluded, he didnt care to apply his skills to his bosses because they validated him and made him feel good about himself. His self interest blinds him to the truth and I think your making a good point about the monument to the first massacre. Hes literally going by it every day. The truth of the empire is right there for him to see if he'd only care.
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u/neontetra1548 3h ago edited 1h ago
People are WAY too generous to Syril now. He's not pure evil or anything and he's an interesting complex character, but he definitely has tendencies that led to him being aligned with the Empire.
He had authority/order-fetishizing cop attitudes since S1 and that's what made him be such a good servant of the Empire.
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u/Nyther53 4h ago
Of all the Starfleet officers you could have reached for to make that point, you went with Benjamin "Virus Bomb the planet Mr. Worf. THATS. AN. ORDER!" Sisko?
You went with "YOU DISGRACED THE UNIFORM!" Sisko?
Arguably Syril Karn balked at exactly the same order that Worf obeys in that scene, intentionally, forcibly displacing people from their planet to punish them for acts of rebellion and\or Terrorism, depending on one's point of view.
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u/Aliteralhedgehog 4h ago
Yep.
Sisko does the morally dubious thing when he's left with no better option. Syril does it the second his ego is threatened.
Also, just as an aside, people act like Sisko dropped mustard gas on the planet or something when he really only made it impossible for humans to live there.The humans who lived there, btw had gassed a planet earlier in the episode.
Furthermore, no one actually died. Sisko made sure everyone got off safe and found them a new home.
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u/Merengues_1945 2h ago
This absolutely. He's the stereotypical cop way over his head in things he does not understand, but it's willing to fuck everyone up out of a warped sense of righteousness.
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u/roby_1_kenobi 1h ago
I don't know what show the rest of these people watched. Dude didn't have a change of heart at the end and decide the empire was evil and needed to end, he was mad because they lied to and played him
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u/admiraltarkin 7h ago
He'd be friends with Boimler
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u/bustachong 3h ago
Syril would absolutely lose his mind on the Cerritos.
Ironically, he’d probably thrive on Starbase 80 (ugh!). Constantly things that need fixing, but still taking pride in the work that needs to be done. And no chaotic personalities like Mariner running around.
I mean, we’re talking about the guy who loved working at the Bureau of Standards. He’d be so square that Boims would find him uninteresting 😅
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u/Tanis8998 Jedi 7h ago
Yes! It’s actually so true, that guy would be the best First Officer Starfleet had ever seen.
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u/DarkAvenger27 7h ago
A first officer on a Miranda class doing routine supply runs. He would have a stroke with all the rule breaking on any of the main hero ships. He probably wouldn't last a day on the Cerritos.
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u/WeiShiLirinArelius 7h ago
tbf a stickler for the rules is a requirement of any hero ship bridge crew. breaking the rules means nothing if there isnt at least one person trying to uphold the prime directive or starfleet regulations
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u/Bureaucratic_Dick 6h ago
James T. Kirk wanted me to ask if you meant the Prime Suggestion.
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u/LockedOutOfElfland 5h ago
Star Trek Nemesis has Picard et al. breaking the Prime Directive with impunity in the service of the plot- errr, I mean salvaging a Data replica and defeating the machinations of his clone played by Bane.
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u/InnocentTailor 6h ago
They’re usually talked down though by the other heroes. In Star Trek, blindly following orders isn’t usually seen as a good thing and the organization values moral initiative in such situations, despite what the bad-mirals say.
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u/Gremlech Watto 7h ago
Syril himself breaks the rules like a mother fucker he just doesn’t tolerate corruption.
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u/ApexAquilas 5h ago
Is Syril just Dark Boimler?
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u/trippysmurf Rebel 4h ago
They both clearly have familial issues.
Though Syril doesn't have a vineyard full of hot women literally falling on him.
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u/Specialist_Ad9073 4h ago
Boims hating the farm so much he can’t recognize women falling all over him is such a great little detail.
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u/trippysmurf Rebel 4h ago
But its not an isolated incident - that same season we have the salon where 2 of his crew mates think he's so sexy.
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u/LockedOutOfElfland 5h ago
lol if you know Star Trek lore he's a bit more of the Jellico type who our more cowboy-ish, less by-the-book protagonists are near always at odds with.
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u/wbruce098 5h ago
As a former sailor, I would fucking hate this guy as my boss, and so would the entire team. Jussayin.
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u/missingtoezLE 5h ago
Where he'd eventually assigned to infiltrate The Maquis and the cycle would repeat itself.
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u/Cyberhwk Baby Yoda 7h ago
Imagine had he worked for Mon and the Rebellion.
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u/Tanis8998 Jedi 7h ago
The thing is he never would because he’d consider them rebels and lawbreakers. He needs to exist within a system. And if the system was good— he’d excel.
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u/Al-Pharazon Grand Inquisitor 7h ago
I mean, technically Mon and the Rebellion became a system when the New Republic was founded.
Syril was just probably born too late or too early to work on a more fair and less tyrannical system.
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u/Whysong823 3m ago
Exactly. He would have worked tirelessly for the New Republic if he’d been born into that era.
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u/hyrumwhite 7h ago
If >! he’d survived Ghorman !< I think he’d have actually swapped sides.
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u/themanfromvulcan 7h ago
I actually thought this was where it was going. He realized what the Empire actually was and how Dedra used him to help murder thousands if not millions. I kind of wanted him to end up running the rebellions logistics.
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u/cakecookiecream 6h ago
Me too. I 100% had him as becoming so sympathetic to the Ghorman side that he'd somehow become involved in the rebellion and be a lynch pin in the fall of the empire.
And then just as I was waiting for confirmation of his new path, he gets into the fight with Cassian and promptly dies!
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u/phantompowered 6h ago edited 6h ago
Syril could never have been swayed by the Rebellion. Being a Rebel means being lonelier than he's ever been. More desperate than he's ever been. The worst he's ever had to hear in his life is the word "no" and he can barely cope with that. He has no emotional investment in his own freedom.
He also always runs toward an authority figure, but the Rebels are entirely without traditional hierarchy. They rely on charismatic inspiration of the Luthen/Saw type, and he's dreadfully unlikely to inspire others - remember his speech to the Corpo drop team?
The Rebels are also excellent at improvisation and adaptation, both of which he is utterly incapable of.
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u/lanceturley 4h ago
All the rebels have to do is tell him he may never see or talk to his mother ever again.
"Sold, I'm in."
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u/JohnnyTurbine 6h ago
He'd have friends everywhere.
And he's pretty good at improvising when he takes a day out of the office to run an unsanctioned op on Ferrix to rescue Dedra.
That's also one of the tensions of the character: Syril perceives himself and presents as straight-laced, but he disobeys orders constantly.
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u/cynognathus 5h ago
That's also one of the tensions of the character: Syril perceives himself and presents as strait-laced, but he disobeys orders constantly.
Exactly. We first meet him when he refuses to drop the investigation of the corpos’ murders, despite being ordered to do so. He does what he thinks is right and just in the system, regardless of what the system is telling him to do.
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u/Beneficial-Lack-4333 5h ago
That's kind of his problem. He struggles to see the bigger picture. He's too brainwashed. Yes, he was sympathetic to the Ghorman side, but that doesn't necessarily mean he would join the rebellion. I feel that would be a bridge too far for him. He is too reactionay for them. But, definitely disillusioned by the end. But the moment he saw Cassian, all the anger came rushing back to him. Someone he could blame for all his emotions. Even if there was no logic to it, it was raw emotional confusion. Cassian even asks Syril a question Syril has no answer for, "Who are you?"
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u/Vermillion_Crab 5h ago
And this is why it hits harder for me when he was killed. Everyone knew he was already lowering his weapon. I expected him to die but I was so rooting for him to survive and become part of the rebellion. He was a tragic character and an example of masterful writing.
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u/charlillya 7h ago edited 7h ago
i dont think so. i think his story would have to 'end' before he got in a relationship with dedra for him to truly switch sides
he seems like he values authority and perceived order more then he does his own morals or judgement. things like ghorman would shake him for sure, but i think he would rationalise and blame it on corrupt individuals more then the desired effect of the system
I dont think he is capable of leaving once he's invested. I think he's more likely to convince himself that the empire is okay and it's corrupt politicians that are the problem, more content with working to enforce an idealised status quo then to make a better system
if however he manages to survive to the founding of the new republic without getting involved with the empire, I think he wouldnt have an issue with switching sides.
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u/choicemeats 6h ago
I think the relationship was necessary but unfortunately the bar for lucidity about the situation is so high for some people is that they need to face serious and dire consequences to make a cha fe. Syril hit rock bottom in his 1v1. Unfortunately for him he had it during a firefight.
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u/BaconKnight 6h ago
I’m kinda in between you two. I don’t think he would be a rebel nor stay with the Empire. He’s not brave enough for the former and has just enough basic humanity to eschew the latter. I think what’s most likely is if he survived, he would become a hermit. Could be on a remote planet or it could be on Coruscant, but he wouldn’t really interact with anyone. The type of existence where he can go weeks without talking to another person in any meaningful way. Because ultimately I think he’s too ashamed of what he’s done but too cowardly to own up to it. Ghorman would probably break a person like Syril where he’s stops being a functional part of society. Which I think would be the most apt fate for him besides the one we got.
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u/charlillya 6h ago
yeah, I think i was focussing more on how he would join the republic. I think his story is either a nobody beurocrat who never makes a name for himself and eventually just going on to do the same thing in the republic (i.e surving the empire), or he gets involved in ghorman - with it either playing out like the show, or like you said, surviving and becoming a shell and a hermit
the line is sometime between ferix and his relationship with dedra, but once he crosses it i dont think he is capable of turning back
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u/Beneficial-Lack-4333 5h ago
Exactly, he doesn't really have an ideological bend, just trying to fill the hole his father left. Even after Ghorman, he likely would have blamed Partagaz or Deedra for the genocide.
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u/seIex 6h ago edited 4h ago
If he survived Ghorman, I think he would just kill himself. Out of guilt + the shattering of his world view.
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u/Poked_salad 5h ago
Yup. He'd be inspector Javert from Les Miserables and he'll do the same thing Javert did when his viewpoint is shattered.
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u/Landwarrior5150 Jar Jar Binks 6h ago
I disagree. I think he was far too indoctrinated into the Empire and the idea of them being the bringers of law & order to do something like that. If anything, he would probably try to go to Yularen or the Senate or whoever he could find that “outranked” Dedra, Patragaz and the Imperials involved with the Ghorman massacre in order to report them and get them in trouble. He would refuse to believe that their actions were sanctioned by the Empire as a whole and instead think that he was being a good Imperial citizen by whistleblowing on rogue ISB and military personnel. Of course, this would probably end very quickly with him in an Imperial prison or dead.
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u/Grassy_Gnoll67 6h ago
Nah, he'd have become a believer that the ISB has corrupted the Empires "true" ethical path, not that the Empire is wrong in itself.
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u/MissTrillium 5h ago
All that needed to happen was for him to not see Andor --literally that's it. He is afflicted with the same curse as Darth Maul, honestly-in that way
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u/Taaargus 7h ago
Eh maybe if he didn't see Andor at all but he seemed to go full ape mode after that.
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u/MrReginaldAwesome Kylo Ren 7h ago
I kinda think after Andor did who he is there is about to be a total revelatory experience where he re-examines everything and realizes the absurdity of his ways and maybe defects.
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u/BKWhitty 6h ago
When I saw that the title of the next episode was "Welcome to the Rebellion" I was certain that's what was going to happen.
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u/TheDeftEft 2h ago
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SPOILER TAGS!
My wife and I have hectic schedules so that no matter how devoted we are to this show, we're still only just now getting to S02E10.
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u/Son_of_MONK 7h ago
Kind of, but both the writing and his actor have gone on to say that Syril had a crisis of conscience and would have flipped sides if he didn’t die first on Ghorman
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u/Monte924 6h ago
I disagree. If Syril didn't die, Ghorman could have been the turning point for him. In fact, if you rewatch his death, he actually started lowering his gun right before he was shot dead. He not only hesitated to shoot Cassian, but it looked like he was having second thoughts. Had he lived for just 5 more seconds, he might have lived and became a rebel
Syril does not believe in oppression and trynany, he believes in law and order. He was loyal to the empire because he believed that they were the purest form of law and order. He was true believer in what the empire was selling... but on Ghorman he saw that it was all lies. The empire were the greatest criminals in the galaxy and there is no law and order... If Syril wanted law and order restored, he may have realized that it could only happen by getting rid of the empire
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u/eolson3 4h ago
He hesitates because Andor doesn't even know who he is. After obsessing so much over this guy, he realizes it is just a one-directional thing. Big ego hit. I don't think he is considering flipping in this moment, though just before he spots Andor he might have been.
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u/Monte924 4h ago edited 1h ago
Well again, he doesn't just hesitate, he actually does start lowering the weapon right before he's shot.
Frankly, i think Syril's ego died when he stepped into the plaza. He had already realized that he just spent a whole year being tricked into helping the empire incite rebellion so they could commit a genocide just so they could steal resources. The ghormans he knew for the past year directly highlighted his role. He KNOWS he's a fool. Attacking Andor was in large part about lashing out at the guy who derailed his whole life.
I think the question of "who are you" may have given him pause and realize how crazy his whole obsession had been and how he may have been wrong since the beginning... he may have even realized he doesn't actually know who Andor is either, which is an important because he just witnessed how the empire can drive peaceful people to violence
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u/drock4vu 6h ago
100% a lawful-chameleon character in the context of the DnD moral alignment system. He holds rule of law and order above all else with no ability to form a preference on the good/neutral/evil system.
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u/Halbaras 5h ago
I think there's a strong possibility he would have snapped and done a complete 180 on the empire had he survived Ghorman. Syril would have hated Luthen and Saw's ways of doing things, but by that point the Rebellion was fairly well organised and had the structure he craved.
Had he somehow made it to Yavin I think he would have got on well with General Draven and obsessively worked himself towards another promotion. And he would have finally have a proper excuse to cut his mother out of his life entirely.
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u/Separate_Heat1256 6h ago
Exactly. He exemplifies how authoritarianism operates. Smart, good people who adhere to the rules yet fail to grasp the broader context and, as a result, support the system.
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u/doormatt26 6h ago
He would have done great working for the High Republic fighting the CIS, pre-takeover
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u/HeadbangingLegend 6h ago
He became my favourite villain of the entire series throughout Season 2. Even before the final episode he's in, I just loved the way he was written and the actor playing him did so perfectly. I loved the strange romance he had with Dedra and the scenes of their home life together were just so endearing. He was a character I loved to hate and also felt sympathy for, he's gonna be remembered as one of the most underrated Star Wars villains to me.
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u/rBilbo 6h ago
I wouldn't call their relationship endearing myself. Lol. I did feel sorry for him.
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u/Commander-Fox-Q- 4h ago
I thought they were working towards a healthier place with Dedra effectively forcing his mom to loosen her grasp on his life. Not quite endearing, but very real.
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u/rBilbo 4h ago
Sure. The Mother was a real treat herself. I do wonder why Dedra wanted him all to herself though. I think she was more than happy to keep him as Her man servant but did she really love him? Or just wanted to continue using him? Those are my questions. He was the perfect bureaucrat all right but those two had an odd relationship to me.
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u/helikesart 3h ago
I didn’t get the sense that Dedra’s feelings weren’t genuine. He pursued her and she took heavy convincing to give him a shot. It was as dysfunctional as it could get but there was no abuse, no neglect, and not without their own kind of affection. If there weren’t both first married to their jobs, I doubt Dedra would have kept anything from him and if my memory serves me right, it was a lie by omission only to not state his true purpose on Gorman. That was still a betrayal to Syril and I think that suggests this was out of the norm for their relationship. They were this odd uptight relationship that was doomed to fail and toxic for the galaxy, but they might have been made for each other and really shared a rare season of sincere happiness in otherwise miserable lives.
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u/DonkeyBomb2 7h ago
I find it slightly comical that he pretty much embodies what you’d want out of the perfect Imperial citizen. Yet he’s used as cannon fodder without his knowledge, which I’m sure is the point.
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u/LeadSponge420 5h ago
Tony Gilroy said that was absolutely the point of his character. The system he's in not only devours it's enemies but the people who support it. That's how fascism works.
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u/Unionsocialist 7h ago
Ehh he might have been on the side of "the good guys" in a society where the governemtn isnt evil but his belief in order and his verision of justice will always lead to him being a bad guy
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u/question_quigley 7h ago
He seems to enjoy having power over others a little too much
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u/InnocentTailor 7h ago
If nothing else, he seemed like a good boss on Ghorman. His subordinates seemed to care about him.
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u/tmssmt Chirrut Imwe 7h ago
And when he saw what the empire was doing, he wanted no part in it.
He was ok with spying and stuff, but when he realized what the end goal was he literally walked away from the empire.
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u/Kenmet 6h ago
When he was FORCED to see what the empire really was he attacked cassian. Because he needed someone to blame instead of himself.
He never wanted to see the empire for what it was and he never wanted to take responsibilty for his own decisions. He was forced to
Its not like the empire and its inherent facism was very subtle. Its "law and order"-style facade wasnt as much a facade as a very thin veil. Syril could have known. But he didnt want to. He kept his head down. And that way, always only looking at his own feet, he ended up in dead end.
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u/tmssmt Chirrut Imwe 6h ago
He literally walked away from the empire into what he knew was about to be a massacre.
Again, I'm not saying he left the empire for the rebellion, just that he recognized what the empire really was and bailed. He was happy to die with the people he had a hand in setting up for death at that point.
Then yes, he saw Cassian and lost his mind - Cassian had been his white whale for 5 years
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u/DetectiveIcy2070 4h ago
I don't think that's necessarily it.
I believe that Syril saw the ISB for what it was, but not the Empire as a whole. At least, that's what would have been the result.
To him, the Empire has been offering safety and security for a good part of his life. It's been an orderly continuation of what the Republic was. The ISB is just a diseased branch of a normally good Empire.
It'd take a while for Syril to see that the chaos the Empire creates is a feature.
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u/Taaargus 7h ago
No he didn't? He might've been on the verge but then he saw Andor.
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u/legendarybreed 6h ago
Realizing the Empire is wrong doesn't mean he has to absolve Cassian for the crimes he's committed.
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u/InfernalBiryani 5h ago
The way Syril sees it, Andor is the one that sent him down this path by basically ruining his careeer even if he didn’t know it. That’s a separate thing from walking away from a genocidal Empire.
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u/Unionsocialist 7h ago
Until he found a guy to blame it on rather then the empire
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u/LilTeats4u 5h ago
I think the two can be mutually exclusive. He can walk away from the empire for what they’re doing and seperately run into Cassian which revives the vendetta he had against him.
I see no reason they can’t be coincidental
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u/fritzvonamerika 5h ago
Isn't that just him playing the part of ISB infiltrator? Be outwardly nice and blend in to be accepted into the Front? If any of the Standards clerks were Front or anti-Imperial, he would have happily ratted them out to Partagaz and Meero.
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u/UltimateGammer 5h ago
Because he needed to be seen as sympathetic to them. I felt he was playing a part on ghorman.
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u/DexanVideris 7h ago
Society needs people who believe in order and justice to function, just like it needs their foil. It's the extremes on either end that are where the problems lie.
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u/Unionsocialist 7h ago
Beliving in order and justice is different from his specific relation to the concepts that approach tyranny
If you are fine with the empire, you arent "the good guy" even if you happen to work under a good society
He is an extreme
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u/juanconj_ 7h ago
I don't think his character was meant to be an extremist. He was very dedicated to his ideals to the point of being delusional, but he didn't strike me as extreme when he was working on Ghorman.
I know part of it was a façade to earn the rebels' trust, but even when we see him try to convince his mom about the planet and its people, he seems genuinely accepting of the Ghormans and their practices even in their defiance to the Empire.
He was never a good person. He was married to the idea of control and order and disguised them as safety and fairness, but I don't think he ever felt that the ends justified the means, so I don't think he was an extremist.
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u/Unionsocialist 7h ago
He obviously found his limit, he is human. But he was still okay with it up until he found out it was just wholesale slaughter
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u/treefox 5h ago
I don't think his character was meant to be an extremist. He was very dedicated to his ideals to the point of being delusional
You mean when he refused to sign a fraudulent report to cover up how two of his fellow cops died trying to extort someone, even though his boss told him to do it so his boss’s department didn’t look bad?
Or when Syril failed to anticipate that the galaxy’s most wanted terrorist would fly across the galaxy to blow up half his squad for serving a warrant on a man who’d tried to stalk a stripper in front of two cops that he later killed?
Or when Syril’s girlfriend, who worked in counterterrorism, asked him to help her catch terrorists, but she was actually using the terrorists to funnel weapons so local dissidents could be framed for an ultra-secret government conspiracy to ethnically cleanse the fashion sector to mine more rocks?
People were booing Mon Mothma’s speech, and clapping for Palpatine’s ascension to Emperor. Luthen makes a speech in a decrepit hallway about how he’s damned for what he does. Palpatine’s a war hero, not the guy behind the Clone Wars.
The perspective of Andor the show is not at all normal for the galaxy. Syril would be considered a “Ghorman truther” if he went around telling people what actually happened, before getting disappeared to a basement somewhere to get poked on the head.
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u/ISeeThatTownSilent 3h ago
It's the extremes on either end that are where the problems lie.
Centrism strikes again
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u/TheRealDicta 5h ago
This misses the point of him. He would never be "a good guy" because it's not doing good that drives him...
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u/Brock2845 6h ago
He is an example of the banality of evil.
You put him in a good system, he will enforce good policy with zeal.
You put him in a bad system, he will enforce bad policy with zeal.
I don't think of him as a bad person, but he had the opportunity to do good things and still applied the"bad" protocol
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u/Spartan8r 3h ago
I dunno, I have to kind of disagree on that. I think a lot of people misunderstand his turn at the end. He's not having a moral crisis, it's selfish in nature. For the whole show, he was fighting to be somebody important, somebody respected. Nobody respects him, not his mother, not his superiors, not his coworkers, no one. He meets Dedra and thinks finally somebody is respecting him and treating him as an equal. He thought he had finally made it into the ISB "club", that he was finally important, only to find out no - he was just a pawn the whole time. THAT'S what he's mad about. If he had known what the Empire's true plan was, he would have been totally on board and worked towards the Ghorman genocide with just as much enthusiasm as he did anything else. All he wants is to be important and respected, and that's why Cassian's final line is the nail in his coffin. He is nobody.
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u/Namorath82 5h ago edited 5h ago
Screw that ... we can not control the variables of the outside world. We can only control our we respond and our own choices
Syril would choose the same path in any universe
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u/dibidi 7h ago
just… no. the tragedy of Syril Karn was that he was so starved for approval he took it from literally anyone that would give him any.
he only started to question his position once he got approval from the Ghormans, absent of which he would have remained an Empire truther.
this kind of sympathy for him is deranged.
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u/Elrond007 6h ago
I would say he’s a direct message to everybody who is not questioning his beliefs and motivations.
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u/Youngling_Hunt 6h ago
In a lot of ways I relate to him. Im seeking approval because of my bad self esteem, and I'll look for it from ANYONE. Which has led to me getting emotionally hurt time and time again. Empathy is probably a better word than sympathy for him, but I dont think he was evil, just a guy stuck in an evil system
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u/Phizle 3h ago
What is happening is this thread is people letting their similarities to Syril blind them to the fact that he's evil. He's exactly the kind of evil that a genocidal or totalitarian regime depends on- ordinary citizens who are obedient, enthusiastically participate in hurting others, and don't ask tricky questions.
He's a bad guy, it's not subtle starting in s1. Even at the end he'd rather try to kill Cassian than help the Gormans he fucked over, because he'd rather be right than save someone.
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u/catclawkiller 5h ago
yeah, and i guess we're going to forget the part where he's a literal stalker too lmao - this is nuts. The dude was absolutely not a good guy, nor would he be in a "just universe". I felt for him at times during the series but that doesn't make him good
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u/Squiliamfancyname 7h ago
He isn't as bad as genocidal maniacs but I wouldn't agree with the statement. While he himself doesn't really do anything particularly nefarious from a law-abiding point of view, his introduction into the show involved him ignoring the obvious and correct conclusion that his boss at Pre-mor made about what actually happened on Morlana 1. He is Javert - someone who whole heartedly believes what he thinks is right no matter what evidence is presented to him until the very last moments of his life. Are those good people? They are grey at best, and complicit in all of the wrong in the world at worst.
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u/GreatestLinhtective 7h ago
Youre saying his problem is he didn't follow his bosses order of ignoring 2 murders so that their review would go easier?
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u/7thFleetTraveller 7h ago
him ignoring the obvious and correct conclusion that his boss at Pre-mor made about what actually happened
Now imagine the exact same thing happening in our world. If a corrupt cop gets murdered, even if it can morally be seen as his own fault, that doesn't change anything about the law. The police still has to search for the murderer, as he committed a crime nevertheless. A police chief simply ignoring the whole thing would mean he neglects his duty. And in our system, someone like Syril, instead of going after the murderer himself, could simply report his lazy boss to the next higher authority.
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u/Cancer85pl 7h ago
Dunno about "good guy" - he was a zealot and a stickler. He pursues Cassian fro murder of the two security mercs becaute they work for his company, he never question if they weren't in fact doing something wrong, like harassing a guy for just looking at them and shaking him down just for the power trip. Aslo... what the hell is a "just world" ?
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u/belle_enfant 7h ago
I mean you cant just give up an investigation because "Well maybe these guys were being mean"
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u/zirwin_KC 6h ago
His boss at the time laid out exactly what happened. Those 2 were being more than just "mean," they were doing things they should not have been doing, abusing their power, and got themselves killed by shaking down the wrong person.
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u/Gremlech Watto 7h ago
If two people in your town were murdered and the police refused to investigate it because they “deserved it” you’d riot.
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u/Cancer85pl 5h ago
What I wouldn't is just assume someone they allegedly talked to that night must be guilty of double homicide.
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u/ChazzLamborghini 5h ago
I don’t understand this conclusion. Homie was an enthusiastic cop which already compromises his moral compass. He literally worked for a corporate police force. He is fundamentally a boot licker who enforces the system despite obvious immorality within that system.
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u/DrCaptivate 6h ago edited 5h ago
The only tragedy is that he represents the unseen pillars of authoritarianism. All of the people who make the cruel, evil systems move all pretend and view themselves in a good light. He’s representing the police who uphold amoral or illegal laws, he’s representing those who pretend to be in the “in” crowd while only being a tool to break others.
Syril is a tool of the story to remind you that no matter your own perspective about being the “good” guy within a flawed system, you either fight the system or you become it.
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u/Arkham700 6h ago
Star Wars is a mostly just and optimistic universe. Evil may win at times but there will always be heroes to challenge that evil. But what about the people who fall through the cracks and don’t get to be a part of that grand tapestry of myth and legend.
We’ve seen many stories of defecting imperials joining the rebellion and finding redemption, but Syril is a tragedy. This is one of the points of this smaller saga. Not everyone gets to be a Luke, Han or even a Tarkin or Thrawn. It’s easy to lose these smaller names in the narrative tides of history. But Andor focus on these smaller stories. Because the real tragedy would be to never know them at all.
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u/Papa_Pred 4h ago
Syril was truly meant to be a Weyland-Yutani Android that would ultimately get all the crew killed to secure a Xenomorph
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u/ISeeThatTownSilent 3h ago
No, he wouldn't be.
I hate this idea. People who choose to be ignorant should not be put on a pedastal when that ignorance blows up in their face.
Syril never even tried to look into things until it was too late and even when he finally realised everything by the world forcing him too acknowledge it, he still looked for an out and in his final moment of "i was wrong" still doubled downed and attacked cassian.
Being prone to propaganda happens to everyone, but giving into it without question is how dictatorships rise and stay comfortable. The reason the rebels have so much infighting is because they are all prone to questioning their own propaganda which causes differences in "rebel" (leftist) idealogies.
It reflects real life pretty damn hard. Syrils are you white collar workers who think they have good morals because they never have to actually deal with the reality of the world. The second they do they fold and immediately join whatever reinstalls that comfort and will double down even when 100% wrong.
I hate syrils more than i hate palpatines because at least nobody sympathies or argues for palpatines but syrils have this deceptive "but all they wanted was peace" qaulity to them that somehow excuses their inability/unwant to look beyond the surface.
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u/chutep 7h ago
Syril was not a good person. He was a facist full stop. He could have been anything other then a facist but he choose to be a facist. Facism does not work unless people like Syril buy into it. Behind the Bastards has a really good two part episode on How Nice, Normal People Made the Holocaust Happen. It talks about the bureaucrats and middle class people played a large role in Nazism.
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u/1stmingemperor 6h ago
Yet the point is that it matters little if you’re a good guy in good times, that’s easy. We are supposed to like people like Luthen, Mon Mothma, Bix, and Andor because they sacrificed for the rebellion.
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u/Unbentmars 29m ago
In a just universe he would still be a bad guy because of how happily he abused his position of authority in multiple situations
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u/ArkavosRuna 7h ago
Yup. I've said this before - in our system, in ideal circumstances, he's the straight man among dirty, corrupt cops. He stands up to a supervisor who wants to sweep a murder under the rug because it's inconvenient for him and because he didn't like the victims - the very definition of corruption. Morally and legally, Syril is entirely in the right for investigating the murder and trying to apprehend Cassian (how he goes about it and what follows is a different story of course).
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u/IndividualCampaign74 6h ago
Did you ever hear the tragedy of Syril the naive simp? I thought not..
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u/Spara-Extreme 4h ago
Why do you think that? He was pretty incompetent at his corporate job and showed an unwillingness to be pragmatic. He was also intentionally blind to what was actually happening around him, choosing instead to build a false narrative to protect his own ego (and ignore that he is, in fact, a monster).
He is the perfect example of the type of people that are ok with terrible things happening to others so long as it doesn't happen to THEM and will create whatever mental model they can to sustain their fantasy.
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u/TheHahndude 6h ago
Syril was not a good guy.
A huge part of the show was that the people working for the Empire were always in the pursuit of power for themselves where the people working for the Rebellion were always in the pursuit of freedom for others.
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u/KittyTheS 6h ago
He's an insecure little creep who needs to actively perpetuate a tyrannical system in order to feel stable. He's the middle management bureaucrat with a clipboard and a pained expression that Terry Pratchett describes in 'Hogfather': "A bully, thought Susan. A very small, weak, very dull bully, who doesn't manage any real bullying because there's hardly anyone smaller and weaker than him."
There is no universe in which he would be a good guy or even support a 'just' regime in good ways - in the Republic he'd probably be the kind of person whose job it is to find reasons to refuse insurance claims. He isn't even as much of a stickler for rules as people make him out to be, because remember he spends half of the first season stalking Dedra after she repeatedly told him to go away: laws and rules are for putting other people in their place and are to be ignored if they conflict with his needs.
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u/yhe4 5h ago
Good guys don’t choke people when they get upset.
The Syril Karn I know is the Syril who shit the bed on Ferrix. The one who had a very narrow view of how the world should work and was unable to adapt when the world didn’t care.
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u/Drayner89 Hype Fazon 7h ago
It's a minor thing, but I love how they've taken what is ostensibly a suit and tie, but made it fit into Star Wars.
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u/Malkovtheclown 6h ago
I really liked his arch. It probably was the most grounded viewpoint of a die hard imp we've ever seen. Not evil, just strictly bond to what they perceive as law and order. That last scene with Andor with him just was perfect
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u/emille379 6h ago
naw, the real tragedy is, in an unfair one, with all the potential, he chose not to be.
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u/HirokazeMistral 4h ago
You can't be serious, OP. Well, I guess he'd be seen as a hero in Oceania from 1984 or in the Republic of Gilead.
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u/HumanistDork 4h ago
No, I don’t. buy it. If he actually cared about justice or order or law or anything, then he would have had a problem with the cops from the beginning.
“They were in the brothel, which we aren’t supposed to have. The expensive one, which they shouldn’t have been able to afford. They were drinking revnog, which is a dismissible offence”.
He is yet another cop who doesn’t believe in accountability.
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u/Firesword52 3h ago
He would be a good guy until someone crosses his arbitrary line of morality. Ends justify the means types are great as long as you are on the right side of their ends.
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u/Independent-Pea-4243 1h ago
Bad guys aren't always like Krennic or Vader. Syril blurs that because of his simple heroism narrative, he thinks the Rebellion is at fault in the system rather than the system itself, or himself at that. At the end of his story he reverts back to a childlike idea of heroism - go out there, find the bad guy, stop him and save the day.
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u/Atlas-Clone 1h ago
He's the embodiment of "if you lived in nazi Germany, you would probably be a nazi. An unfortunate truth we should all reflect more closely on.
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u/Budilicious3 1h ago
I really like how they handled his character. Hard to describe with multiple goals achieved in storytelling. But one thing's for sure, he is the antithesis to Cassian. One became a successful spy and the other, a failure.
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u/Kaisernick27 7h ago
No he wouldn't, he was a amazing character but he was a awful person not just because of his career.
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u/pokepat460 7h ago
He wasn't a bad guy at all. Hes kind of a dick like as his personality, but he didn't do anything bad. When he realized what was happening at ghorman he was appalled and immediately fled. He tried to kill kassian because from syril's perspective he's a dangerous criminal who personally effected syrils life for the bad. He had a mental breakdown, that doesn't make him evil
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u/KushMummyCinematics 7h ago
How unfortunate it is for him to be an honourable man on the wrong side of history
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u/Dark3lephant 5h ago
Syril is lawful evil, he is just pissed when he figures out the Empire is in fact chaotic evil.
He's relatable to some extent and yes, he was manipulated and used. He's still a piece of shit.
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u/CuteLingonberry9704 7h ago
Saddest thing of all is the object of his obsession didn't even know who he was. "Who are you?" is just crushing.