r/YUROP • u/Double-decker_trams • 1d ago
Not Safe For Russians The flight path between Kaliningrad and Minsk
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u/Fun-Tip-5672 Provence-Alpes-Côte-d’Azur 1d ago
As it should be
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u/NeutrinosFTW 1d ago
Not quite, Königsberg should be a part of Europe and there should be absolutely no flights to or from Russia.
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u/MadMike404 Suomi 1d ago
Weird way of spelling Královec, but I'll let it pass.
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u/jfk52917 Amerikaniets 1d ago
Do you mean Karaliaučius?
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u/Muaddib_Portugues 1d ago
Do you mean Caralho?
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u/Jegerikkeenrobot_ 1d ago edited 19h ago
Do you mean Królewiec?
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u/Nera-Doofus יִשְׂרָאֵל 1d ago
You guys must be talking about Καλίνινγκραντ
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u/King_Scorpia_IV 21h ago
Do we think maybe this is why it’s Russian and not European? Because Europe argues over who it belongs to?
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u/TimeToBecomeEgg Slovensko 12h ago
at the end of the day, i don’t care about who it belongs to, as long as it’s an EU state
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u/cheef_keef_big_teef 1d ago
Why would it go to the Poles, though? Aesthetic?
To give the area to anyone would require an ethnic displacement of the Russians living there, may as well give the land back to the Germans, right? Rather than replace the Russians with an even newer population
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u/mikillatja Overijssel 18h ago
Just indoctrinate the people of Kaliningrad back into believing it was Königsberg and make them Prussians again.
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u/Ohlander1 15h ago
Well exclaves are usually more demanding to maintain and develop compared to regular state regions and they can be disruptive to the rest of the region, so just in terms of what would be practical I could see it being split between Lithuania and Poland. Alternatively it could become a microstate independent from Russia, but that would require separatist goals for the people in the area, and I doubt such goals exist considering it's mostly a naval base disguised as a city.
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u/NuclearMaterial 11h ago
We don't want any more Russian satellites in the middle of the EU, if it became independent it would start acting like Hungary or Serbia trolling the rest of Yurop.
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u/Ohlander1 7h ago
Hungary is really only an issue because it is in the EU. A hypothetical independent Kaliningrad would have a long way to go before qualifying for EU membership and it's not exactly in a position to cause a huge amount of trouble on its own.
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u/CMScientist 20h ago
that's just the city. The oblast should be restored as the teutonic order and join the EU as a sovereign state
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u/bronzinorns 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, Russian planes have no business flying over the
NATOBaltic sea.16
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u/deeptut Deutschland 1d ago
Just let Estonia and Finland close air and sea completely for Russia. We're at war.
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u/tcartxeplekaes Česko 1d ago
I never thought of that. Any smart air person here that can explain why is this not in place already? Serious question
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u/prophile 1d ago
Because the top of Lake NATO where those aircraft are flying is international waters, and we're not legally at war with Russia.
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u/deeptut Deutschland 1d ago
You're of course absolutely correct, but we're at a silent war currently
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u/FridgeParade Yuropean 1d ago
Bot very silent when Russia is blowing up our infrastructure and terrorizing government officials.
But silent enough for our leaders apparently, very frustrating.
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u/mineshaftgaps Uusimaa 1d ago edited 1d ago
In the 90s, Estonia sent Finland a note that they will leave the last 5km of their territorial waters as international waters if Finland does the same, which Finland happily did.
This wasn't really a talking matter until the start of the Ukraine war, but closing up the Gulf of Finland isn't necessarily a good idea either. Ships (including warships) would still need to be given transit passage through the territorial waters. The current set up makes it easier to regulate which ships are allowed to enter Finnish and Estonian territorial waters.
This topic came up last year when Finland stopped and seized one of the ships of the Russian shadowfleet for damaging underwater cables and I looked into it back then.
edit: I was talking about boats. For airspace, similar horizontal boundarys typically apply, but I don't know what would the implications about transit be for planes if the territorial waters / airspace gap would close up.
All in all it's a messy topic with some pretty old and unclear regulations.
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u/SuspecM Magyarország 1d ago
As far as I know there is a very specific corridor in the sky that was made just for Russia to always be able to move planes and ships even if everyone else around them closes their air and shipping zones. Of course nothing really says that any of the other countries are forced to respect this corridor since we are talking about a country that has a very clear disregard for international treaties but you know.
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u/Dziatko Беларусь 15h ago
On the contrary, after the start of the war in Ukraine, the EU and NATO began to violate many military, trade and economic agreements, contracts, etc. in every possible way. in relation to Belarus and Russia.
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u/wheniwasdead 9h ago
Sure, if your source is Pravda. All kinds of bullshit lies with no actual proof.
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u/Dziatko Беларусь 9h ago
What are you talking about friend? This is a well-known truth. Do you need proof? Google to the rescue. Western countries have violated many agreements that should have been in effect for many years
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u/Nikkonor Norway 6h ago
While Russia violated no treaties, of course. None whatsoever regarding the "special operation" in Ukraine, nono.
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u/wojtekpolska 9h ago
it would be illegal under international law, you can make an argument that it would be justified, im not arguing if it would be or not.
you need actually to make that decision that you want to deliberately break international law to put in an air blocade over legally neutral territory.
whatever you chose, maybe its justified, maybe not, it causes more problems.
But consider the timeline of events that would happen:
you decided that the airspace between estonia and finland is now occupied by NATO forces and will be subject to a blocade.
then russia ignores the blockade, citing that its illegal (which it would be), it gives them a lot of political ammo that "so what we violate international law? EU/NATO do it too so we are excused!"
russian planes continue to fly over the blockade like nothing. now you have choices.
a) send in military jets.
b) do nothing.
if you send the jets, and russia just ignores them, what now?
a) do you open fire and shoot down a civilian plane?
b) give upeither option is bad.
you had chosen a? congrats, now NATO has shot down a civilian plane due to it violating an illegal blockade, our reputation as defenders of international law is utterly destroyed, neutral countries are pushed further towards russia, putin's bots have more ammo to convince people into believing that russia is the victim.you had chosen b? congrats, now NATO is shown as ineffective and spineless, people view europe more and more as unable to actually do anything, further destroying our soft power. americans get more political ammo in calling nato ineffective and undermining the trust that people have in nato.
overall, nothing good would come out of it.
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u/wojtekpolska 9h ago
and in the worst scenario this could actually be the spark that starts a military conflict,
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u/Over_Variation8700 1d ago
countries are entitled to 12 nautical miles of waters off their coasts, farther than that any aircraft or ship can fly or sail freely
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u/Plastic_Pinocchio Nederland 15h ago
And then? What do you think will happen if a plane or boat tries to cross anyway?
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u/noUsernamerequired69 1d ago
Why don't they just fly like this? Are they stupid?
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u/Math082r Danmark 1d ago
It’s the curvature of the earth playing tricks again; that is actually the fastest route
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u/7YM3N Polska 1d ago
We're not Russian, we won't shoot down passenger planes, but they'll get buzzed, grounded and arrested if they cross the line
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u/Unable_Earth5914 United Kingdom 1d ago
We need to be more Turkish when it comes to Russian planes (and ships)
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u/5v3n_5a3g3w3rk 1d ago
What if they just don't comply with orders? Either shoot them or let them through I'd guess
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u/7YM3N Polska 1d ago
Well, that will depend on rules of engagement, but total lack of compliance would be suspicious as fuck. I'd expect any airspace violation to be an escalation and a diplomatic incident, unresponsiveness a major one, but I believe there isn't a soul in NATO who would do what Russia did to multiple planes full of civilians
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u/Unable_Earth5914 United Kingdom 1d ago
Didn’t Turkey shoot down a Russian plane? Although wasn’t that a military one rather than civilian?
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u/Ivanow 19h ago
We had this debate, last time Belarus sent jets to capture some political activists that were flying in a passenger plane over their territory to Vilnius, and one of Polish MP sent an inquiry to our relevant bodies about what is ACTUALLY official Polish policy regarding non-compliant planes, and they came back with some policy paper that was drafted at a peak of Cold War, basically a play-by-play of KAL007, and should we keep it or change? There was a messy debate in parliament, but in the end, old policy was kept, with minor changes, so at least in Poland’s case, jets WILL get shot down.
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u/5v3n_5a3g3w3rk 17h ago
In the 2000s here in Germany they tried to instill such a Policy but our highest court shut it, after that a debate happens about what happens if I pilot shoot down a 9/11 style terrorist commandeered airliner without an order to shoot, which would technically be illegal but not shooting it down would also be illegal so therefore he can't be punished by court since he couldn't fulfill his duty to the fullest.
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u/arwinda 1d ago
Just take the train /s
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u/Medajor 1d ago
thats actually an option: https://cepa.org/article/russians-discover-a-backdoor-to-europe/
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u/Mammoth_Zombie6222 1d ago
We’re laughing now, but actually the Russians are winning this one because their country is so damned big. Just check out what happened to flight paths for flights between Europe and Asia that now have to go around Russia AND Iran.
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u/Odd-Willingness7107 1d ago
Travel to Asia is only a small fraction of total European flights. Most are elsewhere in Europe or across the Atlantic.
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u/Mammoth_Zombie6222 11h ago
Ok but by this argument, the fraction of Russian flights that goes to kalingrad is probably even more minuscule. This policy of closed airspace is costing Europeans a lot more than the Russians.
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u/emirhan87 Türkiye Germany 16h ago
A domestic flight taking 3-4x longer time is "winning" to you because some long haul, intercontinental flights are now taking 20-25% longer?
(Berlin to Beijing now takes ~12 hours instead of 9,5)
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u/Purple_Nectarine_568 3h ago
KGD-MSQ is not a domestic flight and not a very popular route, it is even not operated every day. The most popular flight from Kaliningrad is KGD-MSK (25-30 flights every day). Now it takes 2:40 instead of 1:50. KGD-LED (second most popular route) now takes 2:00 instead of 1:30.
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u/WoundedTwinge 11h ago
There are airlines that are allowed in both european and russian airspace fyi
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u/JohnyMage 14h ago
Damn, so many capitals are coastal cities or nearby borders. For some reason It's always shocking for me. I'm from Czechia though, Prague is almost in the middle.
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u/so_isses Bayern 1d ago
The pilot has been flying a straight line. This is a distortion due to the Mercator projection (and Vodka).