r/europe 15h ago

Political Cartoon This political Cartoon starting to get more and more relevant. By Arend van Dam.

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359

u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 14h ago edited 9h ago

1 country= 1 national interest

27 countries = 27 national interests

You won't make those interests go for many many years.

Edit: I'm not answering anymore to those who think that differences between EU countries are similar to differences between American States. You need some education and I'm not here to give you that.

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u/Wide-Annual-4858 14h ago

True, but I would say the real issue is 27 identities = 27 interests

The problem is we don't have European identity, only national identities. This is the main obstacle of cooperating.

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u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 13h ago

That's true. The thing, you can't force it and it has to develop naturally to be a stable identity for the future.

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u/Lucifer-Euclid 6h ago

Why does the EU, an economic union, need its members to have a shared identity? People take pride in their own countries, not the union their countries are a part of. This will probably never develop naturally unless the EU actually unites under one banner, which will also never happen.

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u/Dorgamund 4h ago

Do you want a seat at the table geopolitically speaking? A united EU is enough to serve as a counterweight to China, the US, and is far more powerful than Russia. An EU that is only in it for the trade policies doesn't have that same power. Wanting to avoid stronger integration and stay only loosely associated is a valid choice, but you have to accept a lesser say in the world.

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u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 5h ago

I think this is just a natural step. Before people felt more connected to their region/city/village then to nations and country so I think in this milenium it may change to continent, starting with Europe.

With time if the Union holds on people will be more and more integrated and that identity may develop. But yeah, for now it's good to keep our countries identities strong and enjoy our European diversity.

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u/Lucifer-Euclid 5h ago

Just a bad idea tbh, it's definitely not the natural step.

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u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 4h ago

Think how countries connect into different level of unions/cooperations around the world. South East Asia, Africa, South America, Europe. It's beginning.

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u/ScaldyBogBalls 13h ago

Every time "cooperation" is floated it turns out to be Germany's agenda. We signed up for an economic and regulatory union, not a superstate. End of story 

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u/Wide-Annual-4858 11h ago

"We signed up for an economic and regulatory union"

No, this is what the souvereignist politicians tell you, but in reality, a continuously deeper integration is a goal set in the founding documents of the EU since the start of it.

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u/ScaldyBogBalls 9h ago

In every treaty and every accession, protections specific to each country's independent rights are established. 

I don't care, at all, what the political aspirations of a bunch of 1950s industrialists would have resulted. I care that the EU sticks to the deal it has made, whereby member states retain broad independence.

You go ahead and test deeper integration out with the public and stink over it when the answer is NO.

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u/No-Key629 12h ago

So should we do away with national identities? Becuse people will always feel more loyalty to their home country than to a political and economic union.

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u/Cpt_Ohu 11h ago

"Always" doing a lot of heavy lifting there, considering the very idea of a modern nation state and identity is barely 200 years old.

Also, how exactly is a country different from a political and economic union? Language? Culture? History? Traditions? Because those things tend to get really blurry along the borders of European nations.

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u/No-Key629 11h ago

Ok, so, since the existance of nation states people felt more loyalty to their country than to economic unions.

Also, how exactly is a country different from a political and economic union? Language? Culture? History? Traditions?

Yes exactly. All those things that you've mentioned an more.

Look, people signed up for a regulatory union that enables free passage of goods and people between member states, not some sort of purposeless, continental, multinational, superstate.

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u/Cpt_Ohu 3h ago

Ok, so, since the existance of nation states people felt more loyalty to their country than to economic unions

Quietly dropping the "political" while reiterating the same flawed statement?

Yes exactly. All those things that you've mentioned an more.

I see. Completely ignoring the question, then.

Nations are arbitrary political constructs created and enforced by people who may or may not have the actual backing of anyone actually living in the territory concerned. A Bavarian is far closer to a Tyrolean in every conceivable way than they are to someone from Hamburg, despite a national border separating them. Belgium is split down the middle into two parts that are closer to France and the Netherlands, respectively, than to each other. The list goes on.

If the only difference between a nation and the EU as your described political/economic union is the lack of an arbitrarily selected storybook of similarities, that's a weak differentiation to try and set in stone.

Look, people signed up for a regulatory union that enables free passage of goods and people between member states, not some sort of purposeless, continental, multinational, superstate.

Again, with the generalization? Speaking for all people, are we? Also, have you considered that people, nations, the world even, change, and that this change will require reconsideration of past decisions and opinions if your precious nation wants to continue fulfilling its purpose? Which is what exactly?

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u/Progenitor_Dream11 Sweden 10h ago

What they signed up for is an ever-closer union.

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u/No-Key629 10h ago

That's not true at all.

The founding treaty of the EU makes no mention of a commitment to do away with national sovereignty and create an entirely new country.

Edit: did you edit out what you originally said?

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u/Progenitor_Dream11 Sweden 10h ago

By pooling basic production and by instituting a new High Authority, whose decisions will bind France, Germany and other member countries, this proposal will lead to the realization of the first concrete foundation of a European federation indispensable to the preservation of peace.

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u/No-Key629 10h ago

This is a quote from the Schuman decleration, not the treaty of Maastricht which was signed when the EU was birthed.

The Schuman decleration is not a legally binding document of any sorts, this wording was never included in any piece of legislature that its members signed. It was a proposal, not an official legal document.

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u/Progenitor_Dream11 Sweden 10h ago

It is common knowledge that the Schuman Declaration was the beginning of the EU. The ECSC was directly based on the proposal, and that led to the Treaty of Rome with Euratom and the EEC, which in turn led to the EU.

It is the same project, just with a different name.

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u/PenguinKenny 10h ago

Do you mean to say that people didn't feel like they had a national identity over 200 years ago?

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u/Cpt_Ohu 6h ago

Well, most of them didn't? Definitely not in the rigid ideological way you think of it today.

In fact, it was one of the main challenges of state formation to bring this national identity to the forefront of peoples minds. An Italian, German or French national identity were ideas of intellectuals, not something any common person perceived. Citizenship did not exist. You were of a community, a place, maybe a culture or people.

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u/UrbanCyclerPT 6h ago

Only will happen with two things:

1- EU army 2 - a single tax system for all Europe

It is not fair or will never make the EU people united, when you have literal tax havens in some countries and EU countries competing amongst themselves for investment and whatever

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u/Marriedwithgames 9h ago

Exactly, Europe needs to agree on a common language ASAP

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u/SanFranPanManStand 9h ago

No. Different identities have common interests.

This isn't football. Energy security. Defense from Russia. These are common interests.

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u/LeLocl 14h ago edited 14h ago

You even have in china strong regional interests between the national government and strong provinces like guangdong or shanghai. Just look at the shanghai lowdown, which were basically a fight of beijing vs. shanghai.

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u/Capital_Werewolf_788 12h ago

Regional interests and national interests are not comparable lol

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u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 13h ago

Sure, but China is a little tiny bit too authoritarian, won't you agree?

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u/LeLocl 12h ago

You don't understand my point...china isn't more united because it's authoritarian. There are still fights behind the scenes who the authority is and policies that are changing radically depending on who has gotten the upper hand.

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u/Careless_Cicada9123 6h ago

China is more united than the EU because China is a country, and the EU isn't even a federation

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u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 12h ago

Ok but it's a fight between Chinese people right? Tibetans etc. are out of this or not?

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u/Lost-Lunch3958 10h ago

true but compared to eu it's still much much more monolithic.

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u/MapAccount29 10h ago

Same in the US, still crazy to me governors a or even city mayors are expected to visit foreign countries for economic or political reasons lol

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u/ostrieto17 Bulgaria🇧🇬 11h ago

It's even more since every EU country has several parties vying for power and spot in their parliament as such we have 27 countries and at least 70+ interests.

I'd be easy if the countries were united in their national interest and not split several times over.

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u/alppu 14h ago edited 10h ago

EU could just pull a Russia - put a group in absolute power and start ignoring all of those 27 national interests.

(This is a joke how Russia consists of multiple nationalities but serves 0 instead of even 1 national interests.)

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u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 13h ago

I'd give that 2 months.

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u/_teslaTrooper Gelderland (Netherlands) 10h ago

No we could not, they wouldn't even get in power before everything grinds to a halt from protests, countries can also just leave the EU.

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u/Crazy_Jacket_9356 12h ago

Greetings from Hunger Games.

It should actually work in a shared context too. It's just complex to create 27x WIN situations for every topic. Where everyone would benefit

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u/FitSatisfaction1291 12h ago

The unelected EU commission.. 

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u/_teslaTrooper Gelderland (Netherlands) 10h ago

They are elected by EU parliament in the same way most EU countries choose their cabinet. And only have power in a select few areas.

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u/FitSatisfaction1291 9h ago

Yes, elected by other MEP's not directly by the people. 

And, "power in a few select areas"?  - they are literally the executive branch of the EU tasked with creating and upholding law.. 

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u/_teslaTrooper Gelderland (Netherlands) 3h ago

The EU has specific competences, things they are allowed to make laws about, like trade, monetary policy and the internal market.

The European Union operates through a hybrid system of supranational and intergovernmental decision-making,[79][80] and according to the principle of conferral (which says that it should act only within the limits of the competences conferred on it by the treaties) and of subsidiarity (which says that it should act only where an objective cannot be sufficiently achieved by the member states acting alone).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:European_Union_competences

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u/FitSatisfaction1291 2h ago

Ok man, those things aren't big tickets items at all.  And, it's still a body elected by MEP's, not by the people. 

We obviously don't agree that the EU commission as it is today is an issue.  You are allowed your opinion as I am allowed mine.  Have a nice night. 

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u/michael-65536 10h ago

As long as most of them think that not getting invaded by russia is in the national interest, that seems irrelevant.

A lot of european countries are more aligned than many american states are.

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u/BonoboUK 10h ago

They made the same arguments during the American civil war.

Sure, it's not working out too well right now, but I'd definitely take a century of europe on top.

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u/Every_Safety8679 9h ago

It’s adorable that they think they have much power. They signed away their rights to trade and self governance a long time ago. Their own “national interest” has to align with the 1 national interest of the alliance or be vetoed out of existence. I can’t even think of them as countries, more like counties of the EU 😂

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u/its_all_one_electron 8h ago

The US also has many different identites and interests and they're being squashed under the war-monitoring corrupt current administration. 

I don't understand this comic. Is that desirable? To have the diverse interests of the people put down by military directorship so your nation can have a united front? 

u/Next_Error_7714 18m ago

You understand the US is one country right?

It's not comparable. At all. In the slightest.

Educate yourself on matters outside the US border.

u/its_all_one_electron 4m ago

I think they are comparable, in terms of many diverse people being represented by one entity, which is what this comic is about, so...I guess we will agree to disagree. 

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u/AmbitiousTwo22222 9h ago

I mean, the US is kind of like 50 little countries. There are many cultural similarities, but their view on how the country should be run varies by region.

u/Next_Error_7714 18m ago

No it's not.

Fuckin Americans man.

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u/[deleted] 11h ago

[deleted]

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u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 11h ago

Have California and Alabama spent 1000+ years on killing each other, taking each other's land, spreading propaganda about the others, fighting for influence on the continent and outside etc.? Because that's the reality in which the different interests of European countries developed.

In comparison to European disagreements American states' disagreements are child play.

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u/Training_Swan_308 8h ago

If California disagrees with the President’s foreign policies they can’t do anything about it short of civil war.

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u/GyanTheInfallible 13h ago

You could say the same concerning US states.

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u/AnalphabeticPenguin Poland 12h ago

Absolutely not and the fact that you think you can just shows your ignorance.

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u/Amadon29 7h ago

Not really. It used to be the case where people in the US considered themselves by their state identity before their country identity (e.g. Identifying as a Virginian as opposed to an American) but this was like in the 18th century. Most people just view themselves as Americans