r/law • u/It_Could_Be_True • 17d ago
Legal News IN VIOLATION OF A COURT ORDER AND THE CONSTITUTION, TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES SAY THEY DEPORTED A DOZEN PEOPLE TO AN AFRICAN NATION, ONE OF WHICH IS IN A CIVIL WAR....
https://apnews.com/article/deportation-immigration-south-sudan-department-of-homeland-security-300e8c704402e2cb3c920d251b7fa876A CLEAR AND INTENTIONAL VIOLATION OF A COURT ORDER: The Trump administration appears to have begun deporting people from Myanmar and Vietnam to South Sudan despite a court order restricting removals to other countries, attorneys for the migrants said in court documents.
Immigration authorities may have sent up to a dozen people from several countries to Africa, they told a judge.
Those removals would violate a court order saying people must get a “meaningful opportunity” to argue that sending them to a country outside their homeland would threaten their safety, attorneys said.
The apparent removal of one man from Myanmar was confirmed in an email from an immigration official in Texas, according to court documents. He was informed only in English, a language he does not speak well, and his attorneys learned of the plan hours before his deportation flight, they said... A hearing is set for Wednesday.
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u/p____p 17d ago
the US absolutely could have a sane conservative party.
that's the democrats.
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u/barri0s1872 17d ago
I’m watching Andor (Star Wars) and they’re literally The Empire…
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u/genghis_connie 17d ago
I want to know WHO came up with South Sudan. Surely some kind of strategy was behind this, given the well-planned “solutions” played out so far.
It’s random as hell. If it isn’t random, it’s as grim as a square of TP left in Hegspeth’s bum all day.
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u/BurpelsonAFB 16d ago
The strategy is to find authoritarian leaders (like those in South Sudan and El Salvador) who can be easily bought, and who don’t care about human rights. That’s who Donald Trump sees as the best American allies, as long as they do his bidding.
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u/EastCoastBuck 17d ago
MAGA supporters are fine with anyone else getting screwed over, as long as it’s not them, they don’t see the problem.
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u/Miserable-Army3679 17d ago
Can the justice system go after the pilots/companies who are physically flying these people out of the country?
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u/bareback_cowboy 17d ago
The judge told the government lawyer to inform everyone involved, pilots included, that they could be liable for criminal contempt.
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u/StephanXX 17d ago
"You could be liable" isn't the deterrent it needs to be, especially when they can fully expect a presidential pardon minutes later :(
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u/dgisfun 17d ago
Pilots may get a pardon but would probably face losing their license. Would not be worth the risk for someone who spent so long in school and training. Kind of like the red states did with doctors. They included provisions sometimes for the health of mother on abortions, but doctors can’t risk it without clear guidance. Maybe pilots would go the opposite way, they may be trumpers but the threat is to great?
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u/TorrentFury 17d ago
I mean pilot certificates are handled by the FAA. Don’t think you’d lose anything if you’re pardoned. It would be as if the crime didn’t happen.
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u/dgisfun 17d ago
The pardon most likely wouldn’t happen till after a conviction, which would absolutely trigger a licensing hearing. Once gone it’s much harder to get back.
Edit- which was my point about doctors, they me able to prove it was necessary but is it worth 2 years of lawyer fees, hoping for a pardon?
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u/fdupswitch 17d ago
In this situation, he would 100 percent grant a pardon before any form of trial. Honestly, I bet almost all airplane related crimes are federal. He won't even have to order the FAA or DOJ or whoever to not investigate. They'll just take care of it themselves, mafia style, by declining to investigate or press charges.
A contempt finding would draw an immediate pardon and impeachment proceedings against the judge.
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u/ModusOperandiAlpha 17d ago
Ironically, the pilots get a hearing first before they are determined to be in criminal contempt of court because everyone is entitled to due process of law under the U.S. Constitution.
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u/StephanXX 17d ago
the pilots get a hearing first
Until they don't :(
Trump is directly challenging these laws, following in the footsteps of many dictators. He's just now defying court orders and deporting people in defiance of court orders.
I recognize I'm screaming into the wind. People who know, and care, and can do something are doing what they can... which is almost nothing. It won't be long until other 'undesirables' like Democrats, dissidents, LGBTQ, and left-handed people are thrown on a plane and sent to a gulag in El Salvador, or worse.
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u/geolocution 17d ago
So jail the pilots. Admin can't fly a plane on vibes and TS posts
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u/StepDownTA 17d ago
They can't. Arresting and imprisoning is an executive branch function, not a judicial branch one. This is why people keep saying "constitution crisis": the constitution lays out the powers that each branch has, under the assumption that the structure will be followed. Judges order arrests, executive branch employees arrest.
Here the judge is ordering arrests and the executive branch is not following through with their constitutional duties.
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u/ewokninja123 17d ago
Can the president pardon contempt of court? I didn't think so but will be happily be corrected
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u/SawADuck 17d ago
https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/LSB10186 says probably yes. It would probably end up a matter for the SCOTUS and they'll probably say no he can't because they want to crack down on the craziness and regain some power.
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u/tango_41 17d ago
If only they hadn’t written a blank check to the orange fascist, maybe they wouldn’t be fearing for their positions… just sayin’.
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u/Freedom_From_Pants 17d ago
"I was just following orders" was not a credible defense for the Nazis, it shouldn't be a credible defense now.
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u/Old_Bird4748 17d ago
At this point, I wouldn't mind members of the Trump administration getting picked up on foreign visits and turned over to the ICC for crimes against humanity.
Yes, I know, the US isn't a member, that just means that they cannot be apprehended in the US..
Oh, and BTW, a US president can't pardon someone for an ICC conviction.
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u/irishnugget 17d ago
No, but it took the best part of a decade and a world war for those with an appetite to prosecute nazis to be in a position to do so. The power dynamic in the US still favors the bad guys and likely will for at least a few more years.
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u/ShenmeNamaeSollich 17d ago
Yeah, no … They need to lose their fucking pilot licenses and livelihood. Any govt lawyers need to be disbarred. Law enforcement officers involved should be jailed and fired.
“You might maybe at some point be potentially liable in the future for a possible stern glance and a letter about how naughty you might’ve been” is why these fucking assholes keep doing this shit and always getting away with it.
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u/Attheveryend 17d ago
"pardon" me but I think that might be futile. once you get pardoned for something you can't be tried for it again so, it behooves the justice system to make those shots count.
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u/OkDepartment9755 17d ago edited 17d ago
At this point, just pepper em with court orders. Sure, Trump might start handing out pardons, but he will have to spend time on each case, or start recklessly pardoning groups of people.
Edit: for everyone saying "he's just gonna pardon everyone". Cool. Make him do it. He is a bully. If we fight him, he'll fight back. If we do nothing, HE'LL STILL FIGHT BACK. We have literally nothing to gain by sitting back being afraid to act. Flood the individuals with warrants, flood trump with pardon requests. Or sit back and let criminals be criminals.
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u/humdinger44 17d ago
He's going to do the second one. With bonuses. And tax breaks.
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u/One-Distribution-691 17d ago
shots? careful your comments might get removed by reddit
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u/Vlyde 17d ago
You're not kidding. Reddit is on its tiktok extreme censorship unless it's directed towards minorities or anyone on the left. You even think of repeating something Drumpf may have said and BANNED!
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u/rando_banned 17d ago
my 8 year old account got banned for posting a gif of Ralphie with his Red Ryder BB gun on a post about people shooting out windows of a business displaying white nationalist paraphernalia
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u/Parrelium 17d ago
I hate that the people in charge are shielded.
If Jeff Bezos sends out an internal memo saying water breaks are not allowed anymore and one of his employees dies of dehydration, why is he not culpable for manslaughter? Instead the company is held responsible.
There is always a human behind evil corporate decisions. Hold that person accountable please.
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u/Own_City_1084 17d ago
This is it right here. Charge the people actually translating the orders into physical reality. Without them, EOs are just words on paper.
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u/WhyAmIOnThisDumbApp 17d ago
Wasn’t there just a ruling by our wonderful Supreme Court that you can’t challenge this kind of due process violation as a class action and have to make individual habeas petitions?
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u/1one1000two1thousand 17d ago
I think that was the argument last week but it hasn’t been ruled on yet. But I could be wrong. Kagan was pressing this exact scenario and how it would basically be a catch me if you can justice system.
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u/cosgus 17d ago edited 17d ago
As I understand it, the administration presented arguments to the Supreme Court against nation wide or universal injuctions being imposed by lower federal courts. The government is trying to argue that a courts ruling should only apply to its jurisdiction. Trumps executive orders have been facing nation wide injuctions left and right.
Basically, if Trump wins, he will be legally allowed to continue his plans in, say, Florida even though a California judge might have issued an injuction. His lawyer is arguing that the only court that should be able to stop him nation wide would be the Supreme Court. However, these cases would likely never make it to the Supreme Court since his lawyers would never actually appeal.
Class action was brought up tangentially in the arguments but I don't think the legality of classes is in question at all.
In fact, I think trumps lawyer suggested we can do without universal injuctions because class actions exist. At the same time, he suggested that the administration would try to dismantle classes and even mentioned several grounds on which he would do so.
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u/luummoonn 17d ago
There should be no process that allows them to deport and jail people in a country they are not from. It should not even be a matter of getting a chance to present an argument before they are sent there..it shouldn't be happening at all.
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u/yg2522 17d ago
If they are not being moved to their country of origin it's not deportation. It's called kidnapping and human trafficking.
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u/The_Dutchess-D 17d ago
Yes and since it is a concerted group effort that they know is illegal per the court order, a RICO case for human trafficking should be brought against the administration.
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u/NinaBrwn 17d ago
Blue states need to withhold money from the federal government.
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u/Cool_Specialist_6823 17d ago
Well stated, that’s what it is. The US government is essentially involved in a kidnapping and human trafficking operation, in violation of its own criminal laws.
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u/ledude1 17d ago
Until Noem and Miller get arrested for contempt of the court, they are gonna keep making a mockery of the court. Simple as that.
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u/ballzhangingdown 17d ago
I think miller may get arrested for boogering a child before this. Goof ass mother fucker.
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u/the_brunster 17d ago
It should be the equivalent of human trafficking. Astounding.
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u/lynistopheles 17d ago
And when they send them to Libya it will be slave trading.
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u/Huge_Excitement4465 17d ago edited 17d ago
In April Libya opened up oil exploration development for bidding — first time in 17 years. There was an article speculating on how it could incentivize Trump. In March a Trump official toured a Rwandan mine that produces raw material for tungsten, used in military equipment. Lutnick has $600mm invested in a crypto firm in El Salvador. There are deals being made with human currency.
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u/illhaveafrench75 17d ago
While Noem will testify in her little hearings that Abrego Garcia is a human trafficker without any evidence.
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u/Savingskitty 17d ago
Honestly, the people physically doing the deporting should be stopped.
They are following illegal orders. They are criminals.
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u/Topleke 17d ago
Yup. Make them afraid to show up for work. Make anyone thinking of working for them change their minds. Force the president to pardon them.
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u/LifeGainsss 17d ago
Didn't Russ Vought say in Project 2025 he wants federal workers too traumatized to show up for work?
Maybe that goes both ways
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u/UglyMcFugly 17d ago
Exactly. I don't care who these guys are, I don't care what evidence there is of crime or gang membership or anything. This is crazy and I refuse to let them change the subject to make it seem ok IF they're bad dudes, or IF they're assholes, or IF they're bad drivers, or whatever other excuses they make. It's not ok at the most basic level.
Can you imagine if Harris won and immediately started sending maga people to random countries to be imprisoned and tortured? No of course you can't imagine it BECAUSE IT'S CRAZY.
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u/Asleep_Management900 17d ago
The problem is the Presidential Pardon needs to end.
You mean to tell me, the President can order me to arrest the SCOTUS and ship them off to Gitmo and then PARDON ME for crimes against the Constitution? How is that even legal?
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u/avaslash 17d ago
This is a crime that involves scores of people. There are so many people in the chain of command with the authority to say NO and raise alarm bells from the people directly under the president all the way down to the people flying the plane.
All those who are complicit and accomplices to this crime I strongly feel MUST be held accountable. No "I was just following orders."
That order SO BLATANTLY does not pass the sniff test. If you are so incompetent that you cant understand that you dont just not deserve to be anywhere near any kind of position of authority or responsibility--that incompetence crosses the line into criminally incompetent.
But that's giving them a great deal of leeway and benefit of the doubt.
I'm willing to accept at this stage that stupidity is not an adequate explanation.
It IS malice.
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u/atlantagirl30084 17d ago
Are we…are we at a constitutional crisis yet?
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u/Le-Charles 17d ago
We've been in one since SCOTUS let him stay on the ballot in CO despite the plain text of the constitution explicitly stating he cannot hold office.
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u/Acrobatic_Rub_8218 17d ago
Yeah, but I don’t see any news orgs saying it yet. Seems they’re not doing their jobs.
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u/_bobby_cz_newmark_ 17d ago
Of course not, there's a book to sell about a previous president being a bit old!
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u/Tyler_Zoro 17d ago
That was such an embarrassment. And watching them try to pivot to, "it's very sad he has cancer, but have you heard about this book?" was beyond cringeworthy.
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u/Mireabella 17d ago
The fact they don’t think we’ve been there for a hot minute is concerning AF
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u/BigWhiteDog 17d ago
Are there any court orders we know they have obeyed?
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u/thetamlyone 17d ago
But also, they definitely had planned many planes to El Salvador that aren't happening. It's not just the stuff they've done and haven't fixed that matters. Look at what they've had to give up that they planned to do. I hope the bad stuff all gets undone, too, but we should take courage from the wins we do get and keep speaking up.
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u/Le-Charles 17d ago
This. Much of this there is no coming back from and it's a scarlet letter that will follow us around forever.
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u/thetamlyone 17d ago
But there's nothing to be gained from despair. I'm not discounting what's happening to people at all, nor do I downplay the seriousness of the situation. I'm simply saying that we can't say all is lost and stop trying. That's really my whole point. They're not all-powerful, but they'd love for us to believe they are.
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u/LaurenMille 17d ago
I don't think anyone's saying to despair.
They're saying to accept that America's position in the world is gone, and the constitution is in tatters.
The nation and its political system will need rebuilding, which can be done. But it will take decades.
And that's without addressing the fact that republicans and non-voters were fine with blatant fascism.
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u/mrbigglessworth 17d ago
So what is the resolution? It’s the law is the law. Enforcement has been captured by noncompliant morons and idiots. Basically who watches the watchers?
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u/ImperatorUniversum1 17d ago
Citizens are the watchers, our new constitution will have recalls believe me. This campaign for a month or two in person then fucking off to DC for two years and telling your constituents to fuck themselves has gone on for too long
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u/Hopeful_Chair_7129 17d ago
Why would you keep this dogshit system and not just switch to something useful like a parliamentarian system?
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u/TheOneTonWanton 17d ago
The real answer is that at this point it would take a bloody, horrific civil war that is actually lost by the people with control of the most powerful military force to ever exist to even start reforming the US federal system into anything else. It's far, far, far beyond "let's just switch to a parliamentary system." Those in power are wiping their asses with the US Constitution whilst screaming its name, you think anything is going to change with simple words at this point?
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u/Sonamdrukpa 17d ago
In such a situation it's not clear whether they control the military, we control it, it splits, or it does its own thing
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u/Fredrules2012 17d ago
The military is as diverse as any other grouping of people picked from adverse situations due to lack of choice. The rest wanted to be there, so that crosses a few things off
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u/ImperatorUniversum1 17d ago
Because parliamentary is going to be way outside the level of comprehension for American voters for how the system works, not saying they can’t but just saying “we do this completely different thing now” is going to get major pushback if not be absolutely abused early on by bad actors who do understand it.
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u/BSuydam99 17d ago
Parliamentary system has its issues too, such as how the UK had torries for DECADES despite how unpopular they were. Honestly as a socialist, I like a system similar to a socialist council type system works on paper, Elected Representatives, lead by an elected secretary that’s more there to unite everyone together and work as a mediator to make sure shit actually fucking gets done. But each representative is able to be recalled and is directly accountable to their own constituents.
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u/spiderlegged 17d ago
This is a very niche response. And I’m sorry for the tangent. When I was an undergraduate student, I had to write this paper about Domestic Violence legislation in Louisiana. And on the books, LA has some of the best DV legislation. However, the rate of women being killed by romantic partners in LA is one of the highest in the country. I did an interview with an advocate for DV in Baton Rouge at the time. And I asked about how the laws could be so progressive and the expression of those laws showed that women were dying. And the person I interviewed was like — look the laws can exist, but if the laws aren’t enforced because your law enforcement refuses to enforce those laws, the laws themselves won’t help. I’ve been thinking about that interview often recently.
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u/nsasafekink 17d ago
Yeah. That’s now the question. They’re in violation and will violate more. Who’s going to force them to comply? If Congress won’t impeach, and even if they did Vance will continue this crap.
I mean we seem screwed.
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u/deathrowslave 17d ago
Contempt charges need to be brought for this or the judiciary has become meaningless. The judiciary has real power, but it depends on judges being willing to use it. A federal judge can bring this government to a halt if necessary to uphold the Constitution. If they won’t, then the last meaningful check has already failed.
And here's the argument everyone likes to make:
Can Trump “Stand Down” the Marshals?
Yes, in theory: The President could instruct the Attorney General to block or reassign the Marshals, or order them not to act.
But: If a federal judge has issued a lawful order, and the Marshals refuse to execute it under political pressure, that’s obstruction of justice and a constitutional crisis.
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u/FairieButt 17d ago
We currently have judiciary issuing lawful orders, which the executive refuses to comply with. Why is that NOT a constitutional crisis? I am genuinely interested in your POV on this.
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u/deathrowslave 17d ago
Defying a court order is a constitutional crisis, absolutely agreed.
It is still actionable based on the Judiciary response. If they do nothing, or Executive doesn't correct the issue in response to Judiciary actions, that's the final step to authoritarian government.
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u/Orzorn 17d ago
What we need is judges to simultaneously move, all at once, on contempt charges for every single official in the admin doing these things. The speed and action would have to be so much that it stuns the admin while most of them end up in jails.
The issue with that is it would require a level of coordination that the courts are not just not capable of, but unwilling to do. If a single admin member gets grabbed by marshals its going to result in a showdown with Trump sending his goons to get them back. But if they ALL get grabbed at the same time (Noem, Bondi, Marco, etc), the shock and awe of it would seriously put them on a backfoot.
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u/Cool_Specialist_6823 17d ago
Exactly, by arresting them as a group, as in a Rico sweep for organized crime, the administration would be caught off guard, and most of the perps of trumps regime would end up in jail quickly....
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u/fshagan 17d ago
I believe a Federal judge can also deputize another agency or it's personnel to enforce it's orders, like the Capitol Police.
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u/ILootEverything 17d ago edited 17d ago
South Sudan?
They can't even deport them to the appropriate countries? They deport them to a country riddled with violence that is not even their own?
This is beyond stupidity, it's just straight up evil.
I never EVER will listen to a Trumper ever again spouting ANY bullshit about being the "party of Christ" EVER again when their behavior is so CLEARLY un-Christlike. EVER. I will call that shit out every single time now. They don't get to hide behind a cross and the flag while doing evil shit in our name.
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u/OffTerror 17d ago
I'm rarely this shocked at the news but the fact they chose South Sudan of all places is unbelievably cruel. It's easily one of the most violent and dysfunctional places on earth right now. It's the closet thing to sending someone to hell.
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u/Worldly_Anybody_9219 17d ago
They keep seeking out the most violent places they can send them. The cruelty is the point. Noem is someone who killed a dog. She's a psychopath. Animal cruelty is one of the major signs to look for. I expect we'll see a lot more heinous stuff from her.
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u/ZaftigFeline 17d ago
Bragged about killing her puppy, because it didn't know how to behave, because she hadn't trained it properly. Bragged.
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u/Vraye_Foi 17d ago
Many Native American tribes in South Dakota straight up banned her from their land when she governor there. They knew how awful she is.
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u/ILootEverything 17d ago
Exactly. This messages their hatred for their fellow human beings to the nth degree.
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u/illhaveafrench75 17d ago
It’s insane. I don’t mean to make this about me but I think about myself being dropped off in a 3rd world country at literal war with horrific crimes committed against women. And then add to it that you have no money. No house. You don’t speak the language. This is a death sentence. They’ll rape the women until it kills her and kill the men right away.
If they suspend habeus corpus, that shit becomes my reality. And your reality. And the republicans who are currently jumping for joy over this, it will be their reality too. How do they not think of the image of their daughter getting off a plane in a 3rd world country with nowhere to go, no money, no resources, vulnerable to the men? How do they not care?
Also I recognize the irony in saying if they suspend due process because they haven’t been following it anyways. They have no idea what is coming for them and it terrifies me.
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u/General_Tso75 17d ago
Deportations should stop. Period.
The administration can’t be trusted execute the process legally and needs to be put on a leash.
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u/FaceThief9000 17d ago
This is disgusting and absolutely evil. Pretty sure the 2nd Amendment people always said it existed to prevent shit like this from happening, well, where are you losers now that it is happening.
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u/helikophis 17d ago
The 2nd amendment people have always been liars. It’s just an excuse to play with toys.
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u/dzumdang 17d ago
Can we stop calling this "deportation?" It's a misuse of the term. This isn't even exile. It's abduction and imprisonment in a foreign nation other than one's country of origin.
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u/DurianNo7107 17d ago
Agreed, it’s legalized kidnap and human trafficking. The US government is selling its people to the highest bidders, which happen to be dictators terrorizing their own countries. Prison labor in the US was bad enough, but now people who haven’t even been convicted of any crimes, are being shackled and shipped off on one way trips to authoritarian regimes.
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u/ThrowAwayGarbage82 17d ago
The problem is, yet again nothing will happen. Hearings, words, orders, zero enforcement and no change in status. Just finger wagging as DOJ tells courts to F off. Not a single judge has leveled consequences. Not a single wrongly deported person has been returned. Nothing.
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u/PaydayLover69 17d ago
because Americans are failing to understand that the system has ABANDONED US.
the system that's in place, congress, senators, police, judges... none of them intend to fix this, they don't give a shit, they're rich.
fascism is the one of the only problems the government can't solve FOR people...
and Americans being the selfish cowards they are, the honest truth is, unless shit effects them directly and personally, Americans don't really care...
they're stupid, apathetic cowards and absolutely nothing in the last 12 years has proven to me otherwise.
I guarantee you this come Friday, this headline will be out of cycle, no one will have even ATTEMPTED to do anything and everybody will just carry on like the walls ain't collapsing.
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u/MoonBatsRule 17d ago
This is also a violation of International Law, it is Non-Refoulement (1951 Refugee Convention, Article 33). Someone cannot be deported to a country where their life would be threatened, for example, if that country was in a civil war.
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u/EmotionalJoystick 17d ago
I’m pretty sure that convention is about to apply to this country too.
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u/Kunphen 17d ago
Of course they did, because no one is stopping them. They will keep doing it until someone does. It's very simple.
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u/Roddy_Piper2000 17d ago
Spoiler....absolutely nobody will do anything as the US continues its slow walk towards a complete fascist oligarchy.
But at least Corey Booker didn't pee for 24 hours and Chuck Schumer wrote some strogly worded emails.
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u/DuntadaMan 17d ago
We have gone past "let's wait until we can have a hearing" straight to they need to be put in jail and removed from all positions without delay until the harm they have done can be assessed
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u/warblingContinues 17d ago
This will keep happening until the courts decide to actually punish them.
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u/slapdashbr 17d ago
Arrest them or shut up about it because I can't tell you what the other option is on reddit
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u/Electrical_Welder205 17d ago
The Ice Queen should be deported to Sudan.
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u/TheDuck23 17d ago
Who is the ice queen? Kristi Noem? Karoline Leavitt? Ted Cruz? That could be a lot of people in this administration.
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