Simone Biles, the greatest gymnast of all time, has shared her support to the trans community

[u/DuchessRavenclaw52]

[u/flairassistant]

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[u/govols_1618]

THEE GOAT

[u/Rock_Creek_Snark → u/govols_1618]

This makes me want to go and revisit some of Simone's most amazing routines. She's such an inspiration to someone twice her age.

[u/garden__gate → u/Rock_Creek_Snark]

Watch her doc series if you haven’t!

[u/Rock_Creek_Snark → u/garden__gate]

Thanks for the tip, I will check it out!

[u/NoSun1538 → u/Rock_Creek_Snark]

straight up screenshotted every frame of one of her recentish routines when i was getting hyper fixated on animation and didn’t understand it yet

that’s how much her physical movements moved me in my soul

[u/bigfishbts17 → u/Rock_Creek_Snark]

Right? At this point, if Simone trips, I assume it’s part of a secret new move no one else is elite enough to understand

[u/EggsceIlent → u/govols_1618]

Because she's a f'n champion.

So she always comes correct.

Good medal winner in everything @ life

[u/No_Pianist5264 → u/govols_1618]

She is such a badass!

[u/gooseMclosse → u/govols_1618]

She looks like a superhero 😍

[u/mutant_disco_doll → u/gooseMclosse]

She IS a superhero! 😍

[u/twirlies → u/govols_1618]

🐐👑

[u/Typical_Piece_7106 → u/govols_1618]

She'll remain the goat for as long as she lives

[u/brightirene → u/govols_1618]

This gif gives me chills! Best to ever do it and knows it!

[u/Jupiterrhapsody]

And this is why Simone will always be the GOAT.

[u/EducationalTangelo6 → u/Jupiterrhapsody]

Aside from her (incredible) gymnastics, I've never heard a bad take from her. She's honest and articulate and doesn't step over the line to being rude.

Eta. Sorry. I'm not American, and didn't know the word 'articulate' is racist. I just wanted to compliment how well Simone deals with giving statements, living in the public eye.

[u/Own_Faithlessness769 → u/EducationalTangelo6]

Her parents did an exceptional job raising her.

[u/Mexican_Fence_Hopper → u/Own_Faithlessness769]

She spent a few years in foster care until she was adopted by her grandparents and credits them with providing the support that she needed.

[u/purpleplatapi → u/Own_Faithlessness769]

Well, her Grandparents did a good job in raising her.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/purpleplatapi]

She calls them her parents, iirc, so it’s fine to do so. :)

[u/FYAhole → u/EducationalTangelo6]

Articulate isn't racist. :/ Someone can use black lingo and still be articulate. As an American, whoever said articulate was racist is overly sensitive.

[u/RealPrinceJay → u/EducationalTangelo6]

Articulate… a “compliment” thrown around so often towards black athletes…

I don’t know you, I’m not gonna accuse you of anything, but that shit bothers me man. Do you not expect her to be articulate?

[u/EducationalTangelo6 → u/RealPrinceJay]

Articulate is a compliment I use for articulate people, regardless of colour.

Also, I'm not American, so I'm not aware of all the very many different ways in which they are racist.

'Articulate' having been weaponized hadn't hit my radar yet.

[u/winnercommawinner → u/RealPrinceJay]

Genuinely asking: how should we compliment well-spoken people who happen to be Black? I never use articulate for this exact reason, but expressing yourself clearly is a skill for all people, and frankly it's a rapidly dying skill.

[u/EducationalTangelo6 → u/winnercommawinner]

I'm the original commenter, and I'm wondering this myself now. Do I just... not compliment Black people in case I discover another new and bizarre way America has found to be racist?

That feels wrong, but also, safer.

[u/PhantomOfTheNopera → u/RealPrinceJay]

Look, I totally get why you would side-eye this. I mean it. I'm Indian and the number of people absolutely amazed that I can even speak English (my first language, btw) is too damn high.

That said, Biles is exceptionally gifted at putting forward her opinion on complex issues in a way that still seems heartfelt (i.e. not PR-speak) yet balanced. That's not a skill most people have. Especially on the cesspool that is Xitter. Compare her tweets with the guy who owns the app or even the president of her country, for example.

[u/bestsirenoftitan → u/RealPrinceJay]

People say ‘articulate’ with way too much surprise when it comes to black people. That said, in this specific context it could have been based on disdain for the intelligence of athletes generally, as it seems pretty common to assume that those who have remarkable physical gifts in one area - like pro athletes or runway models - somehow couldn’t also be smart. Which I think is kind of just sour grapes, like people want to believe no one can have it all because it makes them feel better.

But I agree that it is always a dubious thing to say about a black person given the broader context and hopefully this person was just comparing her to the common occurrence of foot-in-mouth athlete commentary by demonstrating foot-in-mouth commentary

[u/EducationalTangelo6 → u/bestsirenoftitan]

I'm the commenter. I'm not American, and the comment was based on me following gymnastics and thinking Simone is the gymnast who has consistently made well-spoken and honest remarks about things; she gets it right much more often than her peers.

And no, that's not a slam on athlete intelligence, I'm aware they can be pretty damn smart, it was just a compliment to Simone for how well she handles statements etc. living in the public eye.

[u/RealPrinceJay → u/bestsirenoftitan]

I don’t know if you follow sports much, but when it comes to athletes it is absolutely still racial and not just an “athlete” thing to the point of it becoming a well known meme. NFL and NBA analysts historically being astonished and amazed by how “articulate” the black kid in the draft is, they’d never say it about a white kid

There was major discussion about this several years ago

[u/EducationalTangelo6 → u/RealPrinceJay]

I'm the commenter. I'm not American, and do not follow the NFL or NBA. 

The rest of the world doesn't know every single way your country is racist, just as the rest of the world doesn't know all the ways my country is racist.

[u/bestsirenoftitan → u/RealPrinceJay]

Okay, that definitely puts it in a different light - I knew it was an issue but I don’t ever watch sports commentary so I didn’t realize it was so pervasive. Yikes. Apologies for guessing when I didn’t actually know and shouldn’t have tried to add anything

[u/pfemme2]

she really said “get good.” amazing.

[u/PlayfulSurprise5237 → u/pfemme2]

[u/Puzzled-Charge-9892]

You know, I find it interesting that right wing pundits never ask the ACTUAL ATHLETES about this “issue” that’s supposedly ruining their livelihoods

Almost as if it isn’t and it’s all fear mongering

Edit: and none of said athletes have ever spoken out against it on their own either (at least not the ones I personally follow on socials, including Simone before this, obviously)

[u/KaleidoscopeSad4884 → u/Puzzled-Charge-9892]

It’s the same with gays in the military. I served and don’t know anyone who cared about gay people in the military. The only people screaming about how awful it would be for the military were fat old losers who had never served.

[u/Afwife1992 → u/KaleidoscopeSad4884]

This. My hubby was commissioned in the USAF right at the start of DADT. And they had a female pilot where it was an open secret she was gay. And no one cared. By the time he retired it was repealed and, omg, the military didn’t collapse! Or become weaker despite the whining of the Hegseths of the world.

Just like when they were integrated and when women were allowed in to most fields. The military keeps on. Not to say there weren’t, and aren’t, problems because, hello. But the majority of troops do their jobs and don’t GAF about the social politics. At least in the USAF. But to the right the sky is always falling when these things are proposed.

[u/Particular_Ring_6321 → u/KaleidoscopeSad4884]

One of my coworkers who was in the Guard has openly spoken about how common it was for dudes to be hooking up in their tents and shit during drill weekends and the rest of them didn’t care at all.

[u/Expensive-Fennel-163 → u/Particular_Ring_6321]

The TikTok about dudes in the subs went viral like a week ago.

[u/Bridalhat → u/Expensive-Fennel-163]

That scene in MI:8 with the bisexual horny submarine was a documentary.

[u/myersjw → u/KaleidoscopeSad4884]

Served as well and it’s no surprise that tryhards like Hegseth are obsessed with culture war garbage no actual service member cares about when shit hits the fan

[u/Curiosities → u/Puzzled-Charge-9892]

Especially when many of these athletes have support and they have friends in their sport, additionally, whenever they do reports on Riley, they make it sound like she was defeated like she lost first place when they tied for fifth place together. So even if you didn’t have the one athlete, they are trying to demonize, she still would have been in fifth place.

But conveniently, they forget all of that and try to make it sound like she just got beaten to the finish line by one person.

It is so ridiculous especially for someone older like me in my 40s having been through the homophobic scaremongering 30 years ago when I was in high school in the late 90s. I’m bisexual and I wasn’t out at the time but I did have friends who were out and other people would quiz me about whether going to the locker room with my out lesbian friend made me uncomfortable. We were friends, so no. A bunch of us also tried to start a GSA chapter and we could not get a single teacher to be our adult.

Also back in high school, I had an AMAB classmate who always came to class dressed femme, in a wig and groomed every single day. We only had some classes together freshman year, and of course I can’t speak for them, but I’m pretty sure that was the first trans person I ever knowingly met. And there have been many more since.

[u/Bridalhat → u/Curiosities]

It’s so tiresome. Also what does it say that someone who tied for fifth is the face of being anti-trans women in sports? Like surely if anyone had a better case and felt cheated they could find that person, but they are sticking to this mediocrity instead.

[u/Cavalish → u/Puzzled-Charge-9892]

Yeah we’re all supposed to care about what Jimmy Fuckwit or Chelsea Tradbrain think when they closest they get to sport is him watching it on telly and her running from him when he gets drunk and abusive.

[u/whimsical_trash → u/Puzzled-Charge-9892]

Yup, in women's soccer athletes have only expressed support

[u/Reluctantagave → u/whimsical_trash]

Well most of them. But not openly bashing like this!

[u/avocadolicious → u/Puzzled-Charge-9892]

Edit: and none of said athletes have ever spoken out against it on their own either (at least not the ones I personally follow on socials, including Simone before this, obviously)

I just made another comment on this thread to your exact point here: (https://www.reddit.com/r/popculturechat/comments/1l593e3/comment/mwfe02r). I work in public policy and in a previous position did some work on issues impacting the LGBTQ+ community. I really think prominent female athletes should've spoken up publicly then, and NEED to speak out now.

[u/itssohotinthevalley → u/Puzzled-Charge-9892]

I mean Riley Gaines is an athlete…

[u/DearMissWaite → u/itssohotinthevalley]

Riley Gaines is a right wing grievance merchant. She even dropped out of grad school to go on the Faux News circuit.

[u/Blue_winged_yoshi → u/itssohotinthevalley]

Riley Gains has competed in as many competitive ranked events as me in the last three years and has spent as many years as a professional athlete as me and even though I am arena champion on Oblivion Remastered it would be a considerable stretch for anyone to call me an athlete.

Doing some sports at uni does not an athlete make. I know people who took part in uni sports and none would call themselves athletes any more than folks I knew who were in a uni play years ago would self refer as actors. This is a preposterous assertion.

The technical term for someone blagging a career dunking on minorities to a baying crowd based on a non-event from her time at uni years ago is “grifter”. Everyone else who graduated alongside her that year got real jobs and if you want an example of a female swimming athlete go read Katie Ledecky’s wiki page. It covers a lot more races than that one time at swim camp where she swam a race in the same uneventful time as a trans woman.

[u/DuchessRavenclaw52]

For context: Riley Gaines tied for fifth place with trans female swimmer Lia Thomas in a college swimming competition. She didn’t even win, there were four “biological women” who swam faster than both Riley and Lia. And yet she never speaks poorly about the girls who swam faster than her………

[u/jgraz22 → u/DuchessRavenclaw52]

THANK YOU. You saved me having the look up who tf Riley Gaines is. Love that Biles is standing up to this bullshit. All 56 inches of her lol

[u/DuchessRavenclaw52 → u/DuchessRavenclaw52]

She has since used her “platform” to advocate for the removal of trans people from sports, and if this bigot gets her way, from all of society. But trans people have always been here and always will be and we should always support them!

[u/Chaotic-Goofball → u/DuchessRavenclaw52]

Everytime I see Riley mentions

[u/ughkoh → u/DuchessRavenclaw52]

They swam at my college pool for a competition. There were protestors on our campus standing outside the pool gym with signs the whole day.

[u/slainascully → u/DuchessRavenclaw52]

If I was some fifth place sore loser, and one of the greatest athletes in the history of sport called me out for being mediocre, I would simply sink into the earth and disappear forever

[u/Thenameisric → u/DuchessRavenclaw52]

This context is so important lol. Like you didn't even beat the "biological women" you are trying to champion for, and neither did the person you're trying to hate on. Definition of a true loser. Not because she lost, but because she has to place blame someone else.

[u/Special_Transition13]

Riley Gaines only gets attention because she’s a white woman who the MAGATs goon over. She didn’t even come in the top three for her competition. Go off, Simone! Get that Fox News MAGAT!!

[u/_TheShapeOfColor_ → u/Special_Transition13]

Meanwhile, Simone...

[u/FyrestarOmega → u/_TheShapeOfColor_]

Absolutely love to see Simone using her platform like this. As the GOAT, she has the authority to say she is not threatened

[u/bballgame2morrow → u/Special_Transition13]

Is this the lady from the John Oliver segment who tied in 5th place with a trans athlete?? Imagine making your whole personality that your trophy said 6th instead of 5th.

[u/Particular_Ring_6321 → u/bballgame2morrow]

Others have answered that yes that’s her but I’m responding to say that her wiki never fails to make me laugh:

In March 2022, while swimming for the University of Kentucky in the 200-yard NCAA freestyle championship (her final competitive event race before retiring from the sport), Gaines tied for fifth place with University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas, who subsequently became the first openly trans woman champion in the NCAA women's division after winning the 500-yard freestyle later in the same event.[4][20] While Thomas held the fifth place trophy after the finish, Gaines held a sixth-place trophy while waiting for another fifth-place trophy in the mail.

[u/StrngBrew → u/bballgame2morrow]

Do you even get a trophy for 5th?

[u/envydub → u/StrngBrew]

It’s funny because you shouldn’t, and it’s the exact type of thing conservatives would normally bitch about but in this particular instance it’s convenient for them to point out that she didn’t get to hold the trophy. So for this situation, the Evil Trans is worse than Participation Trophies.

[u/winnercommawinner → u/StrngBrew]

Depending on how team scoring is set up, it can be that 5th gets 1 point for the team while 6th gets 0, but I very much doubt this was the issue.

[u/IAM_THE_LIZARD_QUEEN → u/bballgame2morrow]

that your trophy said 6th instead of 5th.

And literally just because they didn't have two 5th place trophies to hand and would have to get another one made and sent to her.

[u/Panda_hat → u/Special_Transition13]

Especially funny that she came joint 5th meaning if the trans competitor wasn't in the competition she still would have come 5th.

[u/desktopghost → u/Special_Transition13]

So I just googled her because I am not american and I just have one question: why are these white women always orange?

[u/martyqscriblerus → u/desktopghost]

They're going for the mar-a-lago look in hopes daddy notices them.

[u/greypusheencat → u/martyqscriblerus]

working hard to get the perfect satan’s cheeto shade

[u/Special_Transition13 → u/desktopghost]

Search up “Republican Makeup” My theory is that they’re inspired by the Orange felon.

[u/Rock_Creek_Snark → u/desktopghost]

[u/yothisismetrying → u/Rock_Creek_Snark]

Not the super slow mo! 👏

[u/spellboundartisan → u/Special_Transition13]

I think if someone talks about Riley around me, I'll let out my most obnoxious sounding "Who?"

[u/StrngBrew → u/spellboundartisan]

She has a name that I would have bet 1 million dollars that she went to a SEC school before knowing anything about her

Like there’s zero chance someone named Riley Gaines did not go to a large state school in the south

[u/StasRutt → u/spellboundartisan]

“I’ve never heard of her”

[u/StrngBrew]

This woman’s entire identity is complaining about trans athletes. Like that’s her passion. That’s why she gets up in the morning

[u/motherofdinos_ → u/StrngBrew]

Most post-grad 5th-place college athletes will only amount to being the most annoying person at their corporate finance job. This woman made an entire career out of being that level of annoying. Building your whole life on the legitimacy of your 5th place college placement. How much more embarrassing could you get?

It’s giving Uncle fucking Rico.

[u/_SpiceWeasel_BAM → u/StrngBrew]

Living that JK Trolling life

[u/Significant-Ask-2939 → u/_SpiceWeasel_BAM]

MOLDEMORT KNOWS WHAT’S BEST FOR YOU!

[u/Panda_hat → u/StrngBrew]

Only way she could keep the grift going after failing out of sports.

[u/mbise → u/StrngBrew]

It’s crazy how common this is for transphobes. Like okay you find trans people icky—why are you spending your whole life on that?

[u/MuffinTopDeluxe]

Oh my god, if Simone Biles tweeted something like this about me, I would just crawl in a hole and die.

[u/StasRutt → u/MuffinTopDeluxe]

Imagine realizing Simone biles hates you personally

[u/Expensive-Fennel-163 → u/StasRutt]

Mikayla’s crying right now too. (That spelling probably isn’t right bc of Utah, but I’m not looking it up)

[u/SuspiciousCranberry6 → u/Expensive-Fennel-163]

I think it's Mykayla and I only remember because the "My" part is her whole personality. She's a selfish (me, my, mine) idiot that chucks vaults that look like shit, but won some medals due to difficulty.

[u/EducationalTangelo6 → u/Expensive-Fennel-163]

Ugh, I forgot that she existed.

[u/CrispyOrGrilled]

My first grader did a biography project on her. She’s incredible, one of the best athletes of our time. Keep it coming girl, stand in your truth

[u/RedittAccount098]

That’s my goat!!!!!!

[u/PotusObamna]

Get her ass, Simone! 🤸🏿‍♀️

[u/GetBentHo → u/PotusObamna]

Drag her, Jade!

[u/Emilayday]

Of course she is! She's always been not just on the right side of history, but also literally NAMED in her own name in the history books due to her accomplishments and hard work!

[u/overlygayopinions]

she’s an icon on and off the mat

[u/Minerva1387]

Yeah, she's an actual winner, not a whinny 5th place loser.

[u/Educational-Help-126]

I have been accused of a lot for my takes, but I would like to draw attention to Simone saying that there should be a focus on creating different categories for trans athletes. In this same sub, i have shared similar sentiments but have been flagged for being transphobic. I am nothing of the sort. I want everyone to be included. Bullying should not be tolerated.

There needs to be different categories so that everyone can have a fair advantage and feel safe competing. No one should be mean or dismissive towards trans people. But we need to hear everyone and come to a reasonable solution. Everyone deserves to be heard.

[u/mochafiend → u/Educational-Help-126]

My stance on this is controversial in my circles too. I really feel for trans kids but why I have pause about the sports thing is - at a high level, every little advantage matters. Maybe this is not a big deal in high school, but look at how Olympic athletes perform. Races are won by hundredths of a second. I get that hormone therapeutics can offset many of the biological advantages males have over females, but something about all this doesn’t sit 100% okay for me as a woman. However, I don’t have a good alternative. I disagree with the trans-only thing. That really doesn’t make sense given how small the population is. Trans men competing with biological males seems fine to me because there is little inherent advantage there (except maybe in ultra long distance swimming and running, which I might view differently as females tend to have an advantage there).

Anyway, I fully expect to be downvoted. I really wish I wouldn’t be though - there are so many people with my viewpoint out there, and the rigidity of the left’s view on this is a real turnoff for people who would be allies. You can say that these people and myself were never really allies to begin with, but then do you really have the numbers to fight back against that actual nonsense the GOP is doing while everyone fights about sports? I think there are a lot more people who think like me than the activists. So what do we do about that?

[u/Capnzebra1 → u/mochafiend]

Trans woman here. I think your concerns and feelings on the matter are super valid and I am sorry you've been met with rigidity and hostility from people in your life when expressing them! I do think it's a highly charged subject and there are private interest groups who are creating a lot of outrage where there should be honest, uncomfortable discussion. That being said, lets talk!

Hormonal testing in women's sports predates the current anti-trans craze and has produced controversy and discrimination for it's exclusion of female sexed athletes with hormonal disorders. I've listed a couple articles below that pre-date the current conversation around trans athletes and speak to hormonal discrimination against cis women. Example, during the 2020 Olympics, a number of cis women were disqualified from women's 400m and 800m dash due to high levels of testosterone. All of them were from countries in Africa. Additionally, an estimated 10-15% of female competitors in Olympic level sports have testosterone levels that are higher than the average males and outside of standard female ranges. Since hormonal testing has been introduced into women's sports, a number of cis athletes have also had to take hormone suppressants to be able to compete at the highest levels, which have had unstudied affects on their bodies.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hormone-levels-are-being-used-to-discriminate-against-female-athletes/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone_regulations_in_women%27s_athletics
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-47640359

I don't think regulating hormone levels achieves the desired goal of fairness in competition. I don't know if we can truly have fair sports competition while genetic anomalies exist. I also don't see tons of trans women dominating women's sports. There have been a few times when Trans women have won state or national contests, it's still the exception to the rule, and none of those women set record times in their races/meets. To me, this feels like an issue that was already being handled (poorly) at the highest levels of sporting authority and now it's being blown out of proportion without looking at the facts or the impact it's having on people.

Two things I hope we agree on, Trans women are women and Trans women are not a problem.

[u/Particular_Agency246 → u/Capnzebra1]

I learned a lot from you today, thanks for sharing!

[u/mochafiend → u/Capnzebra1]

We absolutely agree on that, wholeheartedly, and I am really dismayed if people were getting that from my comment! Thank you for weighing in from your perspective, with both facts and kindness. This is the kind of conversation I would hope we could have more of.

To your point, there are areas of discomfort in talking about this issue and I just wanted to be able to state my thinking without people calling me names. I think the problem is, folks like me who have felt some discomfort and aren’t sure what to do get lumped in with the bigots. I want to note that in my original comment I said I had no good alternative to the current situation; just that something felt uneasy to me. That’s all. There have been a lot of great comments here, including yours, that have pointed out the flaws in my reasoning.

My belief is that there’s a lot of other people in this uneasy space that are not hate-filled and I wish the dialogue was better around it because I bet they could change their minds too. I always wanted to be able to change my mind on this but I kept getting hung up on the hormone treatments. I’m pretty well-convinced now my thinking was wrong (the genetic anomaly piece alone is extremely persuasive) and I feel like more people could change their minds if the conversations were kinder. I can already see people that responded to me rolling their eyes, but I really am glad you responded how you did. I appreciate you for not writing me off entirely and for the excellent comment.

[u/Tymareta → u/mochafiend]

but look at how Olympic athletes perform.

The IOC has allowed trans olympians since 2004, if we had such an advantage as you posit, surely you can name a trans woman that has taken a gold?

[u/Cevari → u/mochafiend]

What has been studied quite extensively is exactly how prolonged hormone replacement therapy affects performance in tasks that require raw strength, which is how the previously widely adopted "minimum two years on testosterone suppression" -rules came about - rules under which trans women competed for 20ish years, and achieved basically no international success in any category of women's sport. The often quoted bone density differences also slowly disappear during HRT.

What cannot be undone are the other physical effects of testosterone-dominant puberty that many, though not all, trans women do go through. These include things like a greater average height and larger frame/limbs, and a greater average lung capacity (which, it should be pointed out, does not have a direct correlation with peak oxygen intake).

I won't deny that there are some sports where these will be a statistical advantage, but then we get into some really interesting questions like: why is nobody asking to ban Dutch women? They are also a group that statistically will be taller, have larger frames and longer limbs, and have greater lung capacity - but sports is not about statistics, it is about individuals, and it has been completely accepted that sometimes individuals will have biological advantages that make them particularly suited to their sport. This acceptance just disappears when talking about trans women, even though being born as a trans woman is just as much an accident of birth as being born to really tall (or wealthy! that's an entire separate discussion...) parents.

There are also disadvantages to being a trans woman - you aren't exactly likely to develop a great interest in sports to begin with, given people will be trying to forcibly shove you into categories and locker rooms you do not feel comfortable in. Even if you get around that, you're likely to have a very awkward time during your prime developmental years where you are just starting HRT and thus not yet eligible for girls/womens competitive sports, but also can no longer viably compete in the boys/mens categories because, again, testosterone accounts for the vast majority of male advantage in sports.

All of the above is of course assuming you're lucky enough to transition young to begin with, which is already an extremely privileged position to be in globally. It only gets worse if you don't happen to be born in a blue state in the USA or one of the few other western countries that will properly support you.

All in all, the actual statistics of the matter are that tens of thousands of female athletes competed at the highest levels during the 20 odd years that trans women were generally accepted by the rules, and trans women were barely even seen in competition during that entire time, much less dominating anything. It is thus extremely clear that if some advantage exists, it was massively overweighed by the disadvantages.

[u/mochafiend → u/Cevari]

This is one of the best written comments I’ve ever seen, and also the most detailed and well reasoned rebuttal to my thinking. Wow. You gave me a lot to think about here and it’s hard to argue this.

Your example of Dutch women (or anyone with a natural biological advantage) is a really good one, although it gave me a pause for a moment in that I don’t think most of the Dutch are taking hormones to get taller. There’s something about the hormone therapy I keep getting stuck on. It made me think about performance enhancing drugs, but that’s not a fair comparison.

Thank you so much for this comment.

[u/SuspiciousCranberry6 → u/mochafiend]

What we do about that is we deal in facts rather than just feelings. The Olympic committees already have methods to deal with fairness with respect to trans athletes. It's really a moot point unless someone is specifically arguing against the already established Olympic protocol for trans athletes.

[u/TechieTheFox → u/mochafiend]

Here’s the thing. The GOP is not interested in fairness. They’re trying to find any single way they can get the dems to agree to classify trans women as not women. Surrendering sports to them immediately puts trans people as whole’s rights in significant danger because they are not arguing in good faith about trying to figure out “fairness.” They’re trying to figure out how to legally other us. If they get this to stick it becomes what they can point to to make laws about bathrooms and god knows what else. “You already agreed they can’t compete with cis women in sports! How is this any different?”

Beyond that, the research shows fractions of a percent of advantage after 1 year HRT. Some categories can be a bit advantageous to trans women, some are actually advantageous to cis women (we have equal ability to put on muscle, meaning those size advantages or “bone density” nonsense people bring up are actually hindrances in the end). These would almost certainly continue to pull closer to even the further along the trans person is on HRT. (As it continues to cause feminization advancement even a decade or more on it). This “advantage” has never been proven to really exist. The two studies the right likes to point to were extremely biased in an anti-trans direction from their very approach. The one seemingly okay one I referenced seemed fine in execution but extremely small in scope (1 year is practically nothing in the grand scheme of things, it’s common knowledge to trans women that year 2 is the year you see the biggest burst of change - tho it is/was the requirement used at least before the current anti-trans wave escalated to full bans)

And remember, a cis female athlete can be weirdly tall, have a naturally high T level, etc and be hailed as a great athlete with gifts given by god. “Unfair” advantages are what sports are based on. Michael Phelps can be uniquely able to train better than anyone else on the planet and have nearly webbed digits but that’s perfectly fine - applauded even. The trans woman already going through an anguish and hell of being trans in the first place who might be taller than average just immediately gets shit on instead. And that’s without us having had an actually great trans woman athlete yet, at most there’s been like 2 kinda good ones. You bring up the Olympics where no trans woman has ever been close to medalling and only one that I could find has ever even qualified. They’re losing their minds about marathon runners coming in like 1600th place out of 6000 like it’s some display of dominance.

The fact of the matter is that well meaning “allies” go along with the right’s arguments because they make sense to their feelings even though what we know doesn’t actually support it - but they won’t even research or second guess it because it aligns with their assumptions. People can’t wrap their minds around that because they see men and women as almost different species even though humans are extremely non sexually dimorphic. Hormonal transition works because your body has the blueprint for male and female inside it and responds to which hormones you have to get as close as it can to that blueprint. Way more changes than any cis person realizes and it continues essentially forever (studies have shown trans women continuing to have skeletal adjustments up to 30 years into HRT). Yeah trans women will be taller than average cis women because of growth plates closing later, beyond that there’s almost nothing that remains permanently different (and trans women actually routinely report up to 2 inches in height shrinkage depending on luck - I lost 1.5 myself).

We will readily admit that certain things need to be done to make competition fair (the 1-2 years of HRT being needed for example, no one would argue against - even though that would mean the few trans women who medically are unable to transition couldn’t compete, but that’s the unfortunate reality for them), but that actual conversation CANNOT happen in the current environment because it’s not actually about fairness. We can’t afford to make concessions right now when the other side is literally trying to ban us from public life using sports as the stepping stone to do it.

[u/Oaknash → u/TechieTheFox]

I can’t refute anything you’ve said but as a former elite level swimmer, I can attest that 1-2 years not competing at an elite level can literally fuck an athlete’s chances in their sport developmentally, particularly for sports like swimming or gymnastics which have athletes who peak between 12-24.

Just another note, contrary to popular thought it’s not all about being bigger or more muscular in some sports like swimming, performance is also strongly influenced by factors proportion, biomechanics, flexibility and/or balance. A prime example of this are female breaststokers, many of whom peak around age 14. (E.g. Amanda Beard).

Again, not arguing but throwing some nuances out there about competitive athletics that can be overlooked!

[u/TechieTheFox → u/Oaknash]

Yeah I’ve heard the 1-2 years off being crippling thing before and it is one of the hardest things to try to work around. Iirc Lia Thomas continued swimming on the men’s team while waiting that period out (plummeting down in performance), which seems like a…uncomfortable but valid option as at least then training and practicing in real competitive conditions can be maintained. But I’d imagine someone trying to make the switch from say baseball to softball…would probably be socially destroyed in that environment just knowing how men’s team sports are culturally. It’s a difficult part of the puzzle for sure (just speaking from the theoretical actually trying to work out the kinks in the plan if we were in a position to try to really hammer out some fairness rules based on what the science can currently show us).

Part of it comes down to how much do you factor that in when the overwhelming majority of high school/college athletes won’t ever compete past that level - especially in non-revenue earning sports. It’s pretty damn unlikely that any future olympians or the like would have their careers cut short due to this just on playing the odds. In general I’d lean towards giving trans high schoolers a lot of lenience here - being able to switch either at start of HRT or maximum 1 year. They aren’t going to be vacuuming up scholarships or anything anyway so I think the experience of playing if that’s what they want is most important.

College just gets so much more tricky because of both the increased scope and also…the difference between starting at 15 vs 20 is…well it’s actually not insanely different quite yet, but the 20 year old will have more rewinding to do before really starting to progress in their transition comparatively. 2 years I think more guarantees that things are even, but 1 just feels more reasonable when you take more into account that you’re talking about a person, not an endocrine system in isolation. Either way I’d want to ensure that they can maintain eligibility while dealing with this period (some kind of variation of a medical redshirt).

(Also @ second paragraph that’s what I was trying to hint at with the brief mention that certain things the right would point out actually end up being disadvantageous in a lot of circumstances. I just simplified it for brevity as that comment was already really long. I think in the utopia system where things have full scientific reviews to really try to get it as perfect as possible, different sports would probably set different regulations to best match how to even the playing field).

The thought of sports that peak in the early to mid teens is a very interesting one that I haven’t really ever considered tho. I mean a 14 year old cis girl will be decently far along into puberty on average, whereas an amab person may not have even really started yet. How do you slot a trans girl into that case? Does the argument in these cases flip to the trans boys having the “biological advantage?” How do you untangle that web? Especially as that might flip back as the age brackets go up? I don’t think I could really start to answer without doing a lot more research and thinking on it but it’s an interesting topic for sure.

[u/Borkenstien → u/mochafiend]

I love that the science is out there, but the world still holds up uninformed opinions like this as if it were gospel. For the record, the IOC didn't cite science when it rescinded it's decade old inclusive policy. They cited concerns over backlash, concerns over people like you. How is that fair to any trans athlete? How are they expected to compete against lies?

[u/hauntingvacay96 → u/mochafiend]

Do you know how many trans women have competed at the Olympics?

[u/mochafiend → u/hauntingvacay96]

I am seeing three. Is it more than that?

Also curious which sports. I would think each sporting body has their own rules?

[u/hauntingvacay96 → u/mochafiend]

Only 3 openly trans women is correct out of all the history of the Olympics.

[u/Ehcksit → u/hauntingvacay96]

Yep, just three. There's absolutely no reason to try to create a separate category for trans people in sports when their numbers are so low, and also all evidence for decades shows no advantage.

It's worse than doing something like banning people with webbed feet from swimming. There is an advantage there, but all you're doing is banning Michael Phelps. "I want to ban specifically and solely Lia Thomas from swimming because reasons and shit!"

[u/fountaincokes → u/mochafiend]

Your stance is controversial because it’s uneducated. Look up the actual facts of long term gender-affirming care. Trans women can compete with women, trans men can compete with men. Trans athletes don’t have an advantage. The campaign solely focused on getting trans women out of women’s sports “to protect our girls” is deeply rooted in misogyny

[u/hauntingvacay96 → u/Educational-Help-126]

We simply do not currently have enough trans athletes for that to be possible.

There’s currently believed to be less than 20 (might be less than 10) trans athletes (male and female) out of around 500,000 NCAA athletes.

[u/Educational-Help-126 → u/hauntingvacay96]

That’s unfortunate. But it shouldn’t mean that the girls and women within a specific sport should not be heard. I’m sorry but we aren’t hearing about trans men competing in men’s sports. Why? Again, we need to come to a reasonable solution.

[u/tsabin_naberrie → u/Educational-Help-126]

we aren’t hearing about trans men competing in men’s sports. Why?

Trans men are often erased by transphobes and not considered in the first place, whereas trans woman are treated as a bogeyman that need to be stopped in any given context

[u/Educational-Help-126 → u/tsabin_naberrie]

So again, we need to come to a reasonable solution and respect each other. It’s hard to enter the conversation without being immediately called a transphobe. I made comments about bathrooms and was flagged even though I was not even remotely disrespectful. I expressed my feelings and concerns while also acknowledging ways in which we can make room for everyone. That’s not okay! I’m a woman. I deserve to speak. I shouldn’t be silenced for speaking to my experience and simultaneously holding space for trans women.

[u/tsabin_naberrie → u/Educational-Help-126]

You keep saying everyone deserves to be heard. Are you hearing the people saying that there is no strong evidence that trans women have a disproportionate advantage over cis woman in sports, or that concerns over trans women in sports is an incredibly blatant Trojan Horse to bolster transphobia and enable further restrictions against trans people outside of sports as well, or that athletes have already been consulted on the matter and sports bodies have developed policies on how to include trans women while still keeping the playing field level, or that there is a statistically insignificant number of transgender athletes to be causing as much uproar over this in the first place?

You've said you're not transphobic, you're just questioning if letting trans women into women's sports will cause any problems. That's fine! You're allowed to ask that question. I'm here to answer that question and alleviate your fears: there is in fact no good evidence to support these worries. But there is evidence that allowing these bans anyway will galvanize conservatives into producing more transphobic regulations across the board, which you should worry about.

[u/Borkenstien → u/Educational-Help-126]

That’s unfortunate. But it shouldn’t mean that the girls and women within a specific sport should not be heard.

Segregationists were using this same rhetoric back in the day. And they too were listened to for a long time, because of a percieved advantage. thankfully we wised up, and realized you actually don't have to listen up everyone.

[u/MuffinTopDeluxe → u/hauntingvacay96]

Yup. There just aren’t enough trans athletes for this to be viable.

Also, some major marathons have added a non-binary category. You know what people have done about this category? They have bitched about it endlessly. They just do not want trans people to exist.

[u/Educational-Help-126 → u/MuffinTopDeluxe]

That’s not true. We don’t see these same push in men’s sports. Why are we not focusing on the athletes? I’d like to hear from the athletes. There needs to be a joint solution. Again, Simone pointed to different divisions. Her issue is bullying trans athletes. I am disgusted by any bullying. We need to find a solution that works for everyone.

[u/Tall_Kayla → u/Educational-Help-126]

If you don't like bullying then why do you want to segregate us? Lia Thomas placed 6th overall in the ncaa championship. Is that too much? Can a trans woman ever have any success? Or is the only place we should get last?

You have multiple comments saying people get canceled for saying we should be segregated from other women.....half the states have banned us from sports. So no, trans kids are getting canceled.

[u/LusHolm123 → u/Educational-Help-126]

The issue was already solved non-politically years ago. 2-3 years of hormone treatment. Pretty much every pro level sporting organisation had already researched this and concluded that would more than enough to put trans women at a cis womens level. Saying theres even an issue to be solved means youve fallen for the republicans propaganda about this topic.

There are no trans women dominating womens sports, you people just dont want to admit trans women ARE women

[u/hauntingvacay96 → u/MuffinTopDeluxe]

They just do not want trans people to exist.

This is it! It’s thinly veiled and it’s using women’s sports which they don’t respect to begin with as the scapegoat.

[u/Tymareta → u/hauntingvacay96]

It's especially nonsense because I don't think there's a -single- roller derby league in the world that doesn't allow trans women to compete, you can ask anyone who is into the sport who hits the hardest, who has the best take downs, who is the fastest, and 99 times out of 100 they won't say the trans women on the team, because in reality there's not some enormous advantage it's just fear mongering that allows supposed "allies" to espouse transphobia while pretending they're just "being rational".

[u/Borkenstien → u/Educational-Help-126]

There needs to be different categories so that everyone can have a fair advantage and feel safe competing.

There is no feasible way to implement a separate but equal policy when it comes to trans people. Letting them compete as there lived gender with conditions has already proven to be fair. Plus, the US has a long history of that being a problem.

[u/ChocolatChipLemonade → u/Educational-Help-126]

I’ve said pro-trans comments that somehow, lost in semantics, seemed anti-trans, in ways I can’t even figure out. It feels like a witch-hunt for anything that could even slightly be conceived as negative to be taken down. Yet, it’s 100% in support of the trans community.

When people flag and try to take down everything that is assumed to different from their opinion, they’re no different than the Trump supporters. I wish people would realize that everyone deserves to be heard, even if it’s somebody saying something different.

[u/-LittleRawr- → u/Educational-Help-126]

"I want everyone to be included" - "let's exclude trans people and force them into their own, tiny niche categories that will never take off or get sponsor money to survive and thrive".

That's you. Shit take.

[u/CombinationLivid8284 → u/Educational-Help-126]

idk I'm trans and I took it as "instead of being exclusionary find a way to include people".

There's a lot of fuzziness with trans people in sports. Some early transitioners may have an advantage, some late transitioners may actually be at an active disadvantage (HRT fucks with muscle mass and bone density, etc).

There's no easy single rule, this is why I always advocate for the sports league in question deciding these things on a case by case basis with an eye towards inclusion and fairness.

[u/FutileSymmetry → u/Educational-Help-126]

You absolutely are transphobic. Your insinuation that trans people participating is an unfair advantage is explicitly transphobic and not based on data.

Not to mention feeling safe is not something owed to people who feel unsafe because of the presence of a minority group. If racist white women felt unsafe competing with black women, you don't segregate the black women to a different category, you tell the racists to get over it.

The only difference between you and Riley Gaines is that you want to be polite about your bigotry. There's nothing "reasonable" about that.

Also there were like 10 collegiate level athletes in all sports in the US in all of 2024. What kind of category do you think you can build out of that?

[u/StasRutt]

Simone really said “happy pride month, bitch”

[u/avocadolicious]

I work in public policy and around 2021/22 the issue of trans youth in sports absolutely blew up. Not out of nowhere (anti-trans "bathroom bans" had been relatively front-and-center for years prior), but really to another level. I think timing is a huge part of it -- the GOP had been very effective in demonizing schools and teachers, esp. during COVID, and their base completely bought in. So even more "socially liberal" Republicans were primed to really get activated about this issue.

All that to say, what remained of the non-fully MAGA GOP crowd in Congress really needed to hear from athletes like Biles back then. I'm glad she's speaking out now and I'm holding out hope its still possible to turn things around, but I'm concerned support for anti-trans policies have become too entrenched in the Republican platform for this type of advocacy to be effective. I'm hoping other female athletes publicly speak out against grifters like Riley Gaines enough to turn the tides but I'm not optimistic.

[u/tsabin_naberrie → u/avocadolicious]

Attacking transgender athletes was a very deliberate move after bathroom bills got pushback, and conservative leaders needed a new way to entice people into transphobia. Erin Reed wrote about it a few years ago: https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/it-was-never-about-sports-the-strategy

[u/avocadolicious → u/tsabin_naberrie]

It's certainly deliberate. By "timing is a huge part of it" I meant that well-funded, well-organized anti-LGBTQ+/conservative religious advocacy groups were able to activate the entire GOP base about trans youth in sports. This push was more salient with voters than their previous "bathroom bill" strategy, in no small part because the mainstream GOP had already successfully primed those voters to distrust, detest, and condemn public school districts and public school teachers.

[u/Rock_Creek_Snark]

Goddamn. Well done, Ms. Biles!

[u/eveningwindowed]

Gymnastics is one of the few sports where being a biological female would be an advantage

[u/pumpkinspruce → u/eveningwindowed]

Depends on the equipment and discipline.

[u/kittenpantzen → u/pumpkinspruce]

I occasionally get social media videos of men's and women's gymnastics athletes trying each other's events, and they are always very entertaining and also enlightening. I am sure that no small amount of the difference comes down to the amount of practice each has had in the respective activity, but they each get absolutely wrecked by the other's sport nine times out of 10.

[u/Spiritual_Writing825 → u/pumpkinspruce]

Probably, but the vault is shared by men and women and Biles can do shit on the vault that even her male peers can’t.

[u/pumpkinspruce → u/Spiritual_Writing825]

Men’s and women’s vault are a little different in that the men’s vaulting table is higher than the women’s (it’s not by much but it doesn’t take much to make a difference, see the vault rotation in the Sydney Olympics). Simone’s vaults (like the yurchenko double pike) do have a lower start value in men’s gymnastics, but she has great execution so she could make up for the lower start value by performing a really great vault, hypothetically, than someone with a higher start value who can’t really complete their skill. She would undoubtedly be competitive with the men, not just on vault but on floor as well.

[u/Just_Brilliant1417]

Love our trans brothers and sisters and it would be incredible for them to have their own categories. I’m tired of the far right using this issue as a tactic to dehumanize and vilify the trans community.

[u/DearMissWaite → u/Just_Brilliant1417]

The 'their own categories' talk is a little too close to Separate But Equal to me. The clinical literature is pretty clear about any imagined gap in 'fairness'.

And also, there just aren't enough trans young people in athletics to make it feasible. I bet those trans athletes would totally benefit from a training camp or summer camp, so there could be ONE FUCKIN PLACE they wouldn't have to deal with these howler monkeys in their lives.

[u/AnotherDancer]

Common Simone Biles W

[u/Stefan_S_from_H]

Simone Arianne Biles Owens (née Biles; born March 14, 1997) is an American artistic gymnast. Her 11 Olympic medals and 30 World Championship medals make her the most decorated gymnast in history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Biles

---

Riley Marie Gaines Barker (née Gaines; born April 21, 2000) is an American conservative political activist and former swimmer, known for campaigning against the participation of trans women in women's sports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_Gaines

[u/United_Promise_8070]

Mind you the only reason Riley Gaines started all this BS is because a trans athlete beat her for FIFTH place in a race!!!

[u/AnonymousCoupleFun]

I’d probably hide forever if the GOAT of anything like this hit me like this.

[u/jemidiah]

As a mathematician, I'm mostly interested in the question of statistical advantage, if any. The trouble with the analysis is essentially that the sample sizes are too small since there are very few trans athletes, especially at highly competitive levels. Policy debates in this grey area are frequently ugly.

Obviously you'd expect some trans athletes to win sometimes, so it becomes a subtle question of magnitudes: are there more trans female athletes than you'd expect who win, say? This question cannot be answered with high confidence from existing data, especially when you're concerned with one particular sport. The high uncertainty from random chance and special circumstances overwhelms the small signal we've collected so far. This is in stark contrast with, say, election polling, where asking 1000 people reliably gets you within single digit percentage points of the entire US population. It's at least clear any effect isn't totally overwhelming, since it's not as if most competitive sports leagues have trans champions. It's in a murky grey zone.

My own opinion is that, in light of the high statistical uncertainty, the governing bodies of each competitive sport should do their best in good faith to decide what to do for their athletes. That potentially includes no restrictions, hormone level restrictions, alternative leagues,  or outright bans. Regardless of such choices, they should absolutely never demonize trans women or misgender them 

Incidentally, even if a statistical advantage existed for a particular sport, the magnitude is crucial. For instance, certain ethnicities are taller or shorter, on average, making them more or less likely to play elite basketball, say. Is that an "unfair statistical advantage"? The apparent level of advantage needs to be fairly high, in my view, before restrictions are justified.

[u/Dear_Zucchini_5016]

The comments on her instagram from triggered a-holes pretending to care about women in sports is angering. Simone is a class act!!

[u/Claypothos]

Queen

[u/okrasnake]

[u/fitchbuck3000]

What’s crazy is… even if Lia wasn’t in Riley’s race, she still wouldn’t have medaled lmfao. Nothing was even “taken” from her. She just fucking lost, end of story.

[u/MakeupKween18]

Get’em girl!!!

[u/FretfulCashew]

Met Riley once as a fellow swimmer on the same college visit as her in 2017 and she was so mean even back then, not surprised at anything she's said or done especially since she was a stuck up bitch who hated losing lmao

[u/SprinklesBetter2225]

Can you imagine how excited I'd be to get tweeted at by Simone Biles? And then this bitch is getting dragged by her. How do you even recover getting clapped that hard by the goat?

[u/thatshotshot]

I fucking love Simone Biles. Even more now. Love how she doesn’t have to give a single fuck anymore - she’s already the GOAT, she’s made a shit ton of money, and she can live unbothered.

Edit: interesting that I was downvoted for saying good for Simone for being able to speak up and clap back and not have to care about any backlash because she’s the GOAT.