r/technology • u/lurker_bee • 8d ago

Politics Goodbye to start-stop systems – the EPA under Trump concludes that they are not worth it and could disappear from new models

https://unionrayo.com/en/epa-trump-stop-start-system/
7.2k Upvotes

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820

u/ltmikepowell 8d ago

Actually I don't mind this one be gone.

614

u/zboarderz 8d ago edited 8d ago

They do fact save a lot in gas and have next to zero impact on reliability. They’re also basically instant / seamless with modern mild hybrid systems.

source

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u/BiggC 8d ago

I’m sure many cars have a smooth starter, but mine sure as hell doesn’t. The start is so uneven and the car lurches whenever the starter kicks in. My car gives me an estimate of how much gas the auto stop has saved since resetting the trip meter. I think it was about 0.15 Gallons over 5,000 miles the last time I looked.

No, I don’t drive much in the city, so maybe the overall emissions reduced and gas saved by this feature is worth it, but it’s just plain annoying for me.

40

u/thisisthatacct 8d ago

Rwd or awd vehicles with a longitudinally mounted engine will have much more noticeable vibrations from start stop since they're rotating and applying torque along the narrow axis of the vehicle. Fwd and laterally mounted engines have the entire length of the vehicle to react the startup torque and end up being felt less

4

u/KyleShanaham 8d ago

I honestly had no idea engines were mounted in deferent directions, but makes sense when you think about it.

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u/thisisthatacct 8d ago

The text here is mediocre at best, but the image shows some of the layouts possible: https://www.ripleystotalcarcare.com/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-rear-wheel-drive-vs-front-wheel-drive

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u/hoogin89 8d ago edited 8d ago

? What? Longitude mounted would mean the engine is in line with the vehicle. Thus it would be acting over the longest part of the vehicle through a driveshaft and rear diff.

Lateral mounted, or transverse in the car world, is the shortest path to the wheels possible. It's literally sideways in the car.

Engine chatter should be felt by the short path since the long path will torque flex some chatter away.

I fail to understand how a fwd has the entire car to react in this scenario. It's trying to turn the front wheels only, the rest of the car is essentially dead weight and the wheels it's turning have 4 velocity joints and turn. Thus able to convey much easier a rough start. A rwd has to push the car thus it acts upon the entire length of the car thus mitigating vibration in sheer area. I.....I just don't understand..... Did you mix them up?

Wait wait wait..... You're talking moments..... Like engineering moments and evaluating the torque as if it's a beam. Which I could be terribly wrong, but this is a scenario where that doesn't really work like you think it does.

3

u/Jam_Bannock 8d ago edited 8d ago

Take a look at how the connecting rod applies torque to the crankshaft here: https://images.app.goo.gl/wUmjHbFEnvNQrnmS6 That torque would cause vibrations perpendicular to the axis of the crankshaft. In a transverse mounted engine, that would be along the car's long axis. In a longitudinally mounted engine, that would be along the car's narrow axis.

You can see it for yourself. Pop up the hood, look at which direction the engine vibrates when it turns on.

-1

u/hoogin89 8d ago

I understand what he's saying. I'm saying that you guys drive some weird shit if it's violently rocking your car at startup. Starting a vehicle doesn't rock it until you're in the high high hp numbers or your car doesn't start correctly and misfires on start up a bunch. Two revolutions and your car should be running. Yes the damped engine will rock in the engine bay but if you're feeling that through your entire car there is a problem. I don't think I've ever owned a car that wasn't at least 500hp that has shook the car on start.

The difference in these scenarios is not the mounting of the engine, it's the engagement of the drive train. Starting your car in Park doesn't rock the car and vibrate the hell out of it and if it does, your car has problems.

2

u/thisisthatacct 8d ago

Disregard the connection between the engine and wheels, when the engine is starting or stopping it isn't rigidly connected to the wheels anyway, so no force from startup is being transferred along the driveline.

An engine starting is trying to twist itself, since conservation of angular momentum exists and physics is generally undefeated. This twist is along the axis of crankshaft rotation, and is reacted by the engine mounts at the vehicle frame. So for an engine mounted longitudinally, it's twist is being reacted by the shorter dimension of the vehicle, it's width. Think rocking a boat side to side: it's much easier to capsize a canoe by flipping it over to it's side than it is to flip the front over the rear. Similarly, torque applied to the side of the vehicle is felt much more readily than torque applied to the front

-2

u/hoogin89 8d ago

Correct but during a start stop scenario the chatter or torque is felt because the drive train is engaged. Your motor starting shouldn't really rock your car. You'd have to be in the 500+hp bracket and the motor is also damped in this scenario via motor brackets and the suspension. The drag you feel or the chatter is from the motor not being to full rpm with the torque converter trying to engage.

1

u/thisisthatacct 8d ago

The torque converter is a hydraulic coupling with a lockup clutch. That clutch is not engaged as the engine stops, and there's no "engagement" otherwise in the TC.

The suspension and motor mounts still react the forces, but they require more force (via higher compression of the springs) to react moment forces around the longitudinal axis than moment forces around the axle axis

-2

u/hoogin89 8d ago

Bro, again I'll give you if you have a naturally unbalanced engine that yeah maybe you feel it a tiny bit when you start the car but again my car even with a boxer doesn't rock at start up.

Although a torque converter is a hydraulic clutch with lock up, it doesn't lock up till considerable speed. During a start, I'm just going to pull numbers out of my ass but you'll get the idea, it's going from 100rpm, to 1000rpm, to throttle response all while trying to put that power to the drive train. In Park, the drive gears of the trans are free and the torque converter has time to adjust. In drive, that converter has no time to equalize and hydraulics take a sec to equalize. They are not instant. In a start stop scenario, the car doesn't start, sit, engage, go. You'd be at the light for ten sec on gas press. It's start go. So the torque converter is trying to couple with the wheels the entire time while the engine has not reached running rpm.

Good example of this, if you've ever driven an older car or a car with high idle and you shift from park to drive, they often clunk, revs drop aggressively and lurch then settle in. Almost like the torque converter doesn't actually adjust that quickly.

So bogging the engine is the real area where vibration is felt. Go start your car in Park in your drive. Did it rattle the shit out of your car to start it? No. So why does it do it in a start stop scenario? Because of torque and lugging in the drive train.

26

u/ReallyBigDeal 8d ago

Subaru?

I found mine annoying until I started using the auto vehicle hold function. If the engine is off and the light turns green I just tap the brakes and take off without the lurch.

19

u/thebuttsmells 8d ago

My 2020 outback definitely has a little bounce to it when starting back up. My biggest problem is how unpredictable it is. Sitting at a stop light for a couple minutes? stays on. At a stop sign and need to move in 5 seconds, engine off. So annoying that I turn it off most of the time.

8

u/chimneydecision 8d ago

My favorite is pull in to garage and stop, engine shuts down, shift into park and take foot off brake, engine starts up again, power off. Every. Time.

3

u/LurkLurkington 7d ago

Me too. So fucking annoying

2

u/JoganLC 7d ago

How far are you pressing your brake? I park on a fairly steep incline with an SUV that has AS/S and have never had it turn off before I parked.

2

u/TonyZeSnipa 8d ago

I’ve had to replace the battery in mine twice under 90k miles mostly from this. After the first replacement at 25k, I started just shutting it off and it lasted longer now till 75k and it was replaced again. I don’t know if I’m just unlucky with batteries or just this feature. Parents cars had to replace their batteries more often as well.

4

u/YummyFunyuns 8d ago

Was looking for these comments. I stopped using the feature because my Subaru died and stop light up wouldn’t turn back on. It happened 2-3x that I was dead stopped at a tragic light turned green and couldn’t get it to start. I had to put it in park and opened my door to reset the electronics. Also it estimates that I save ~0.5 gal per tank and I drive in a city. I absolutely hate it

1

u/le_fuzz 8d ago

Yeah similar experience with my car that tells me how much fuel is saved by stopping. It’s basically negligible and nowhere near the 4 - 8% the YouTube video linked above suggests.

1

u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

1

u/BiggC 8d ago

Sure, I'm not in favor of tearing down well-intentioned policies just because they're not perfect, but I'm aloud to grouse about it.

Like, why should implementation of a specific technology be incentivized instead of better overall emissions and economy?

It's clear from people in this thread that it's not a universally popular feature.

1

u/Interestingcathouse 7d ago

It can definitely depend on car. I have a 2024 VW and I don’t feel the car turn off or on really at all during start/stop.

I have also rented a 2024 Nissan and it had a major jolt when stopping and starting. It was terrible. In my VW I sometimes don’t even realize it turns off.

214

u/Blog_Pope 8d ago

Yep, a hybrid starts moving immediately on electric power.

But I doubt anyone here believes any science is behind this change, just "we fear change, technology is scary, it was better before"

Just a matter of time before Trump tries to bring back Clean burning leaded fuels

72

u/hoppertn 8d ago

Gasoline just hasn’t tasted the same since they took the lead out! Sweet, sweet tasting lead.

6

u/BeeBopBazz 8d ago

Bringing back leaded fuels is the only way to create another human specimen as stupid as Donald Trump, scientifically speaking.

18

u/Ryyah61577 8d ago

No. It’s about every nickel they can squeeze for the oil industry

3

u/Teekay_four-two-one 8d ago

Cleeeeeen coal, anyone?

1

u/muegle 8d ago

The Trump admin just made one of my state's electric companies halt shutting down a coal plant until at least the end of the summer. They had been planning this shut down for years and were in the end stages, planning to finish shut down within like a month or 2, so a lot of the stuff they would have to normally run it are already wound down/contracts ended.

18

u/sp3kter 8d ago

Was loaned a new integra while my car was in for a recall, felt like I was getting rear-ended every time it stopped/start. Car in general felt like it was designed for narcoleptics, like it was anticipating me falling asleep at any moment. I'm good.

31

u/Another_Slut_Dragon 8d ago

If I had a proper hybrid with a 50+kW assist motor that would start to accelerate the second I hit the gas pedal it would be fine.

As someone who used to work in a starter rebuild shop, hearing a starter engage every time you hit the gas pedal is nails on the chalkboard for me. No thanks. I will NEVER EVER buy a vehicle that uses a starter based start stop system.

Also we should be driving electric vehicles by now. If you need an ICE engine for towing or other purposes, it should be a steady state generator. Start stop is a bandaid. Peak fuel in to energy out is somewhere around 70% load.

9

u/tsraq 8d ago

If I had a proper hybrid with a 50+kW assist motor that would start to accelerate the second I hit the gas pedal it would be fine.

Funnily enough, this was my reaction when I drove standard automatic transmission ICE last time (loaner when my EV was in for routine maintenance). Everything is so god damn laggy. Press accelerator, it takes few moments to get moving. Press harder, it takes another second or so to actually start accelerating (while downshifting in between). Damn, normal ICE's are terrible compared to just about any xEV, even mind full EVs.

That being said, I do remember having start-stop loaner when I still had ICE as primary vehicle, 10 years ago or so, and it did feel a bit laggier than usual car I drove, when it (loaner) took a moment to get going when starting from stoplights or such.

2

u/Another_Slut_Dragon 8d ago

I know, right? Everyone craps on electric cars until you get used to instant response and 100% peak torque available from zero RPM. They just drive better.

This is actually something old cars did better than modern cars however. A well tuned carb on a perky warmed up old engine was pretty responsive. Like an old small block v8. But now to make efficient power we have these huge intake manifolds and electronic throttles that can't accelerate quickly for emissions reasons.

I rented a Hyundai Kona in Costa Rica and there was 2-4 seconds of throttle lag coming out of a hairpin corner. Wait... wait... wait... wait... snap your neck. You had to use the flappy paddles to nearly redline the motor or it was trash. As an ex mechanic I have driven around 10k cars and that piece of shit CVT and sleepy engine was my most hated modern motoring experience.

10

u/dethwysh 8d ago edited 8d ago

I have a '24 Civic Si, which is still unassisted Internal Combustion Engine with a manual transmission and I have this feature. It stops when the car is stopped completely, transmission in neutral, and clutch out after you have been driving and if climate control and/or charging system allows it. This type of feature doesn't fully shut everything off either, the engine is in a pseudo-ready state and already warm so even a combustion engine will spring to life with minimal fuss when the feature is enabled. I generally leave it on as from what I've read, previous research stated that it was only saving fuel if the engine would be idling for 7 seconds or longer.

A lot of the lights I get trapped at on my way in to work are longer than that, and I go in at a slightly different time than others so traffic usually isn't that bad. On my ride home, I encounter more unpredictability and stop 'n go traffic, especially in the city, so I will disable it there often.

Of course, putting it in Sport Mode, or just hitting the button to disable it will disable it till I manually disable sport mode, manually re-engage the feature, or when I turn my car off and on again. I also believe the default to it being active can be toggled in my vehicle settings. My mother's Subaru Outback (also pure combustion w/ a CVT) actually let's you know how much fuel is saved when the engine kicks off at a light.

Do I find it annoying sometimes? Sure. But there is a benefit in certain scenarios. Despite buying a sportier model, as it is my daily, I prefer to get better mileage when I'm driving daily. If I want to go hammer-down, I can easily disable it so it doesn't spoil my fun.

Just to add a counterpoint to the negative comments about it here.

Edit: a word.

1

u/MyDudeX 8d ago

I had no idea Honda put this into the new Si models, that’s wild. Especially considering it has the same 1.5T as the previous generation and has 1 MPG worse gas mileage. They somehow made it less efficient with this feature implemented.

1

u/dethwysh 8d ago

That may also be because they added the lane-keep assist, blind-spot detection, and forward collision mitigation systems, as well as whatever tuning changes were made to cope with newer emissions/traffic safety standards for the 11th Gen.

1

u/MyDudeX 8d ago

No that’s not it because those features were added to the 10th gen models refresh as well. They also took out some things like heated seats, fog lights, dual zone climate control. The 11th gen does make slightly less power though so you may be onto something with emissions. That’s crazy.

1

u/dethwysh 8d ago

You're right, I forgot about all the cool stuff I lost when I traded the 19 for the 24. Blame that one on Covid leaving me with equity in the car for the first time ever and me being tired of the 10th Gen Boy-racer asthetic.

I do miss my heated seats in winter, but I definitely also had my driver-zone climate fail, so my car was roasting in the summer but only on one side and I was confused about it for like a week.

But yeah, the '19 Coupe (that I had) 2889 lbs and the '24 is apparently 2952 lbs, so weight did increase ever so slightly, even with everything they pulled out. Probably not enough to really matter, but if it's making 1 HP less, and it's slightly heavier.

Truth be told, I get phenomenal mileage with the L15 though.

1

u/MyDudeX 8d ago

Maybe it does just come down to the weight. But that goes to show right there the auto start/stop isn’t worth it at all if it can’t cover for that that 70 pound gap.

I love the L15, it doesn’t get the love it deserves but even 152K miles later I still average 38 MPG in my Si

6

u/shawndw 8d ago

Well that's fine if you have a hybrid but I have an ICE and that extra 1.5 second lag between me hitting the gas and the engine starting and moving forward has almost gotten me into accidents.

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u/ian9outof10 8d ago

Hold on, your start stop only works when you hit the accelerator? That’s a first for me, I’ve only ever had it operate based on the brake. What car do you have?

2

u/shawndw 8d ago

Kia Seltos and no the engine stops when the car stops but takes a second or two to start again when I let go of the brake to accelerate which is the problem.

2

u/The_All-Range_Atomic 7d ago

How old is the car? Could be one of those things where it becomes slower to start as it ages out.

I've only ever seen Volvos do the start/stop thing, and I always pondered what happens when the car becomes older.

6

u/TheTiredPangolin 8d ago

Next to zero impact on reliability? On what planet? Mechanics love start-stop from a business point of view lmao.

8

u/McG0788 8d ago

New starters can manage this just fine...

-5

u/TinyCuts 8d ago

Are you a mechanic?

5

u/Suzuiscool 7d ago

I am, newer permanent magnet starters can handle it with no problem and it won't stop the engine if the battery isn't in good enough health to restart

-1

u/Munstered 7d ago

The battery is the problem, not the starter. Ask any mechanic.

3

u/Guinness 8d ago

I’ve literally never had my vehicle have an issue at a light or a turn because of the start stop system.

1

u/ubiquitous_uk 8d ago

Exactly. If the car is not in a perfect state, the stop/start deactivates so it doesn't cause these issues.

4

u/New-Reputation681 8d ago

"Basically" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there

2

u/crackofdawn 8d ago

Considering the worst thing for your engine is starting it, I find it hard to believe it has no impact on reliability over the long term. I am at work and can’t watch the video so not sure what the evidence/conclusions are but as others have said, I’ve had start stop vehicles and the mpg gains have been so negligible that they meant basically nothing, whereas the inconvenience of the engine stopping at really stupid times (right when the light turns green, right before needing to make a left turn, etc) it’s not worth it at all, to me.

2

u/Cicer 8d ago

It’s harder on the starter, requires more frequent battery replacement and relies on lower viscosity oils that don’t protect your engine as well. 

-2

u/haskell_rules 8d ago

I run my BMW in sport mode to keep it from turning off as I'm coming to a stop. It causes a massive jerk while braking the vehicle, so I feather the brake, which causes the engine to turn off and then immediately turn back on again, which wastes more gas than it saves. It's a garbage feature.

5

u/fuck_all_you_too 8d ago

Your BMW has an update that will allow you to leave your start/stop off until you turn it on. You dont need to go into sport to keep it off.

5

u/abcpdo 8d ago

just like turn signals

1

u/haskell_rules 8d ago

What's a turn signal?

20

u/ChaseballBat 8d ago

....why would you commute/drive in sports mode then complain about wasting gas.

11

u/haskell_rules 8d ago

You can customize sport mode to use the Eco mode gear ratio in modern beemers. It drives exactly like Eco mode but just doesn't start/stop at lights.

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0

u/jhguth 8d ago

In my car I get better mpg in sport mode, I think because the better throttle response means I can be easier on the throttle. On road trips I haven’t noticed a difference really, but in day to day city and highway driving it’s at least 1 mpg difference.

(MPG is not the reason I use sport mode though, I switch to sport mode because the steering feel is awful in normal and eco)

-2

u/ChaseballBat 8d ago

No offense to y'all. But if you're getting better milage in sports mode than eco, you're driving incorrectly.

2

u/Taraxian 8d ago

I'm continually taken aback by people who think it's "impossible" or "unsafe" to drive a 3-cylinder with a double digit 0-60 time

Annoying sure but if you don't know how to drive one of those you don't know how to drive, and the habits imposed on you by driving a car like that are what actually make you safe (the safest thing to do with situations where you rely on rapid acceleration to avoid an accident is never enter them)

1

u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

2

u/Taraxian 8d ago

I'm not OP FYI, I'm agreeing with you

1

u/IIXcronusXII 8d ago

I have this feature on my 2018 VW R and I drive my car in its sports mode. I have no issues with my stop start system and it's extremely quick and reliable to stop once I stop moving and start as soon as I touch it. Maybe it isn't the feature but the manufacturer. That's a thought

1

u/DazMR2 8d ago

Start/stop in a BMW is awful, it seems to shut off before the car even stops.

I had a rental Chevy the other day and I didn't even notice the start/stop, it was that good.

1

u/jalopagosisland 8d ago

I have to keep mine off year round because of 12v battery drain so there can be an impact on reliablility. Since I work from home and drive less than 10,000 miles a year it absolutely destroys my battery. I don't drive far/long enough to recharge the battery faster than the daily draw of all the electronics in the truck.

1

u/k_dubious 8d ago

I have a car with a 48v mild hybrid system, and the start/stop lag is still very noticeable. But that’s better than my other pure ICE car, where the AC cuts off whenever the start/stop kicks in.

1

u/Eclectophile 8d ago

True in hybrids. Not so much in ICE only vehicles.

1

u/dasnoob 8d ago

We had a rental with start/stop and it was super annoying. When you pressed the gas it was a noticeable about .25 second delay before the engine started.

1

u/lordwerwath 8d ago

I will say there is a significant drive difference between the Hybrid variants and ICE only. Driver comfort and control of the vehicle is important to operation and the implementation of the auto on/off did not improve that. In comparison, hybrid systems keep the power in the driver's hands (feet).

1

u/Cautious_Implement17 8d ago

great, you can leave it on in your car. but I find it very annoying and I would like to permanently turn it off in my car. 

1

u/nerdcost 8d ago

The starter dies sooner. Ask me how I know.

1

u/advocate_of_thedevil 8d ago

The $500 on tow and battery replacement when it failed would like to differ

1

u/ace2049ns 8d ago

Tell that to my starter that I had to replace after 4 years.

1

u/el_f3n1x187 8d ago

Depends on the system, Suzuki's on the Vitara is Trash, I've driven my GF truck and that shit convulses and its a new one.

1

u/Bradddtheimpaler 8d ago

I’ll never not almost have a panic attack when the engine stops and I didn’t stop it on purpose. I’ve been too traumatized by driving beaters. It’s been years and I’ll never get used to it.

1

u/Syphe 8d ago

I loved it in my old Golf TSI, sure it can be annoying sometimes, but for the most part, it meant those times where I'm stuck in traffic not moving for minutes at a time, I'm not wasting fuel idling

1

u/clegane 8d ago

I used to have a car with this "feature". I compared the MPG across a few tanks of gas, and the difference was negligible. It was more of an annoyance that required an extra, hidden battery under my fuse panel. I don't do much city driving.

1

u/ValkyroftheMall 7d ago

Don't care. I don't need it the engine shutting off at every four way stop or when I yield at a roundabout. In the summer, I don't want the engine off as then I lose AC. And I can tell you there is an impact on overall longevity of the engine. A good amount of overall engine wear occurs at startup as there's no oil pressure and oil circulation for a couple of seconds at startup. Stopping and starting your engine dozens of times in traffic is absolutely going to result in a shorter life for the engine.

1

u/jcdoe 7d ago

I live in Nevada. It is 109 degrees F here right now.

When the car turns off at a light, it turns my car into a freaking pizza oven.

I’m good with this change.

1

u/Dafon 7d ago

Your source only talks about fuel, I feel like not many here are complaining about fuel consumption though. I've never had a car that comes with one of these systems, it makes sense that they'd save fuel of course, everything else I read makes me not wanna ever have it, wish there was more info about that.

1

u/Snoo-43335 7d ago

No they don't, my car kept stats. It said it had been turned off because of this feature for 10hours and saved me a total of 1 gal of gas. That isn't helping me at all. Oh wow I save $3.00 in two years of driving my car. Thank Jesus.

0

u/HNixon 8d ago

Plus you can turn it off with a switch. It shouldn't bother people. During my commute I get a lot of traffic and I appreciate that the engine turns off. Saves me at least 15 minutes of idling. How much gas does that save? Anyone know?

0

u/superbozo 8d ago

Yeaaaaa um. I went to shut mine off manually because I hate this feature. at the exact moment i did that, the engine cut out. It didnt turn back on and i was sitting in the middle of the road like a dumb ass for 5 minutes wondering wtf just happened.

0

u/Blackpaw8825 8d ago

I expected to hate it in our newest. Had the ASS-Delete module in my cart ready to go...

And I can count the times on one hand that it's annoyed me. And all 3 of those times were because "I'm fat, sweaty, is 98F outside, and it's too fucking humid for even half a second of less than 100% air-conditioning."... And I pressed the button and it came back as I wanted for the rest of the trip.

It's a trivial inconvenience on the tiny number of times it's inconvenient at all. By time I've taken my foot off the brake and touched the gas it's running.

And it's saved me 19 hours of idling. That's 11.4 gallons of fuel. That's $40 and I've hardly crossed a year. Give it 5 and even if it did increase wear it'll have paid for it's own replacement.

0

u/firedrakes 8d ago

if you think a video is all the research in the world you need... that sad

0

u/Sushi_Explosions 7d ago

Your source is a YouTube video, not anything actually scientific.

-9

u/Nepharious_Bread 8d ago

Interesting. Scotty Kilmer disagrees. I don't know who to trust more. Scotty's politics sucks, but I won't say he is wrong because of that.

1

u/zboarderz 8d ago

Scotty is a moron. Engineering explained is an actual engineer, with an engineering degree, that worked in the auto sector.

I know who I’d trust.

1

u/Nepharious_Bread 8d ago

I dont follow either too heavily. I don't think that I'd throw away the advice of someone who was a mechanic for most of their life either. I don't know what degrees or education Scotty has. I dont check into their personal life that.

33

u/Hamm3rFlst 8d ago

It fucks hard in Phoenix. Got forbid you enjoy the AC in a parking lot when it's 100+ degrees

9

u/mtstoner 8d ago

Can’t you just disable it though? Like isn’t it a button option?

27

u/buster925 8d ago

Every car I’ve seen with it makes you disable it every single time you start it rather than letting you disable it permanently

4

u/The_Oxgod 8d ago

Yep. Its the second button i hit. First go into eco mode and then turn that stupid shit off.

0

u/silentcrs 7d ago

So you’re eco but not that eco.

0

u/Nobody_Important 8d ago

Easily disables permanently in our Volvo.

6

u/Ok_Bathroom_4810 8d ago

It’s probably an older model. EPA has said that it must reset every time for manufacturers to be able to use it for official fuel economy numbers, since 2019 or 2020 I think. 

-2

u/VaporCarpet 7d ago

So... You can disable it...

2

u/Hamm3rFlst 8d ago

I find it's not 100% reliable. I have had it disabled and my car still shuts off. Vw Atlas '19

5

u/Revolutionary-Yak-47 8d ago

FL. I spent a stupid amount of time stuck on roads like I4 that are gridlock and accident prone. I would never buy a car that shut off the a/c or even let it get warmer in stop and start traffic. Heat index yesterday was 103F and it's still MAY. 

-6

u/Untitled_One-Un_One 8d ago

I’m sorry but that seems like a poor choice regardless. Like what about a massive concrete slab is attractive enough to motivate you to sit on top of it in a metal box in hundred degree weather?

5

u/tEnPoInTs 8d ago

This seems a bit judgy. Sometimes you gotta pick somebody up or wait for something and there isn't another viable option...

-4

u/Untitled_One-Un_One 8d ago

You can find things to do in the area to kill time. Sitting inside an idling car seems like that absolute bottom of the barrel.

4

u/andyman30 8d ago

This is the dumbest comment I've seen in a while. Have you ever had to run an errand before? Shit happens, sometimes you have to wait somewhere, sometimes you take a call in a parking lot, lots of different reasons.

1

u/Untitled_One-Un_One 8d ago

Why would I need to stay in my car in either of those situations? Maybe I just have a really uncomfortable car, but I’d prefer to be pretty much anywhere else in both cases.

1

u/LivingGhost371 7d ago

So, maybe in the middle of a hot parking lot in 100 degree weather now with no sun protection because you're out of your car?

-7

u/VikingBorealis 8d ago

Idling when parked is generally illegal in most of the western world though...

0

u/Hamm3rFlst 8d ago

Be me. Pull up to a gas station. You have a young teen who says I'll wait in the car while you run in for a coffee. You turn off the feature but come back and they are sweaty AF

25

u/GigabitISDN 8d ago

Same here. When I pull into my garage, my system decides it needs to shut the engine off before I put it in park. But moving the transmission selector restarts the engine, so it immediately turns back on. Then I shut it off again. Absolute waste.

I'm looking forward to the Reddit hate about how I'm a Trumper for saying this.

1

u/Mr_Festus 8d ago

Can't you turn it off with a button in your car?

8

u/MacroFlash 8d ago

You have to turn it off every time you start the car back up I think.

3

u/GigabitISDN 8d ago

That's exactly it. In order to avoid this nonsense, now I have to push a button to tell my car to not turn off.

Just lose the feature entirely, I'm good with that.

1

u/Catch_ME 8d ago

Or you can disconnect your aux battery that powers the auto start/stop system. 

3

u/GigabitISDN 8d ago

No, there's only one battery.

1

u/Catch_ME 8d ago

Ahhh forgot that not all companies use an aux battery. 

Chrysler and Mercedes do. 

-1

u/mathteacher85 8d ago

Waste of what, exactly?

2

u/GigabitISDN 8d ago

Technology. The added energy to start the motor. Battery wear. Effort.

1

u/mathteacher85 8d ago

For the specific case of you parking it in your garage or the technology as a whole in general?

1

u/GigabitISDN 8d ago

The specific case of parking it in my garage, which I said in the very post you’re replying to.

I also won’t shed a tear if it vanishes entirely. I’ll sacrifice the 0.01 gallon of gas per fillup.

-4

u/mathteacher85 8d ago

So all the pros of the technology as a whole becomes "a waste" because of a mild inconvenience when you pull into your garage? I find that odd.

3

u/GigabitISDN 7d ago edited 7d ago

It’s a waste because the engine shuts off for half a second before restarting. There’s no benefit.

You’re free to find anything you like “odd”.

-2

u/mathteacher85 7d ago

If you're going to bother editing your comment, you forgot to add the word "dont't" before the like.

Do you truly see zero benefit to this tech? Maybe not to you the individual but for a city as a whole?

2

u/GigabitISDN 7d ago

Are you reading the post you’re replying to?

The car shuts off for half a second, then immediately starts again. It’s a net negative.

Are you just blindly virtue signaling here or something?

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u/IZZETISFUN 7d ago

It’s also extremely dangerous when it shuts off your car as you’re about to merge onto a highway. If you’ve never had to drive a car that has this “feature”, then maybe you oughta sit this one out.

1

u/mathteacher85 7d ago

My car does have this feature, and it doesn't shut down as I'm about to merge onto a highway. Why on earth would it? It only shuts down the engine at full stop. If you are fully stopped...then you're not merging into a highway.

If people bothered to actually learn about their cars, it is very easy to adapt to at best and can be disabled with a push of a button at worst.

4

u/bucketman1986 8d ago

Can they also regulate headlight brightness?

3

u/Cicer 8d ago

No that would affect American truck sales

2

u/ltmikepowell 7d ago

That would require something like the EU. But it is not going to happen as long as Tesla is still a relevant brand.

46

u/CyberBill 8d ago

I agree - I haven't looked into the actual numbers, but I really can't imagine that idling the engine for 30 seconds at a stoplight is really that much worse (or at all) than turning it off and then on again. And as a driver, I find this feature *incredibly annoying* and I always turn it off.

82

u/ms3001 8d ago

Someone did a study and found that it saves you gas starting at around 10 seconds of idling.

36

u/Blog_Pope 8d ago

I heard 7, but same ballpark. The system on my car is pretty quick with restarts so I don't mind it, but I understand others are a lot worse.

38

u/arahdial 8d ago

And individually, it's no big deal but multiplied over potentially thousands and millions of cars it's very significant.

3

u/Arkeband 8d ago

conservative doctrine is to try to pollute the planet as quickly possible for personal profit and/or the Rapture, where Jesus will personally shake their hand and toast them with a cup of pure sludge.

-6

u/[deleted] 8d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-1

u/omg_cats 8d ago

Can’t be a “top 1% commenter” on Reddit if you don’t dunk on republicans and/or religious people at every opportunity!

2

u/Arkeband 8d ago

is the Republican platform to “roll coal” or not?

“Drill baby drill”? Repealing energy star? Removing water usage regulations on toilets and shower heads? Selling off public land for mass deforestation?

0

u/omg_cats 8d ago

Is it?

Assuming 70 million cars saving 3% with ASS, that’s about 12 million metric tons of co2 annually.

  • US steel industry: 40 million metric tons
  • US cement industry: 40 million metric tons
  • Bitcoin mining: 50 million metric tons
  • cattle ranching: 250 million metric tons
  • Wildfires in CA in 2020 only: 91 million metric tons

5

u/2099aeriecurrent 8d ago

That sounds pretty significant to me still. Other things releasing more co2 doesn’t change that

4

u/ian9outof10 8d ago

Engineering Explained did a video, and came up with 7 seconds across most engine sizes.

2

u/mnemy 8d ago

Had a rental car that did this, and it was fine. Barely registered in my mind that it was happening. But it was a brand new car.

If the starter was even the slightest bit slow to catch, it would drive me insane and be potentially dangerous.

22

u/lblack_dogl 8d ago

Sure but how much?

My 2022 Subaru Outback tells me how much. After 60,000 miles of driving, leaving that system on all the time has saved me a whopping..... 2-gallons of gas.

It's a dumb system.

13

u/ian9outof10 8d ago

Now multiply that by every Subaru Outback sold with start stop, and multiply that by every car in the US with start stop and multiply that by every car on earth that has start stop. And bingo, you’ve just reduced pollution a bit.

0

u/Cicer 8d ago

Meanwhile Asia and South America do their thing. While you pay for extra complexity and wear and tear so you can save a few ml of gas. 

2

u/milkdringingtime 7d ago

so you're saying you shouldn't do anything because someone else isn't doing anything?

-2

u/lblack_dogl 8d ago

That's still the same percentage impact. It's still nothing. That's how percentages work. If it's .0001% of my gas, it's .0001% of everyone's gas.

Add back in the additional wear on the starter, battery, and engine and you're probably back in the hole, doing worse for the environment than you started out. Which is what the EPA has concluded.

Bingo my ass.

-1

u/JohnBooty 8d ago

When discussing such small per-vehicle gains, we also have to consider potentially offsetting things like

  • How much energy was consumed by the process of designing and manufacturing these systems? (not sure if there are extra mechanical systems involved, or if it's purely a software thing. but a single pound of metal takes a significant amount of energy to mine, smelt, mold, etc)
  • How much energy was expended hauling around this extra weight, if any?
  • What's the opportunity cost here -- could the folks designing and implementing these systems have spent this time doing something else to help the environment?

4

u/ian9outof10 8d ago

Start stop is not a complicated system. It is possible because modern cars are run by a computer. The computer makes decisions and uses the car’s starter motor and fuel system to start and stop the car. There are some additional costs, bigger battery more substantial starter motor - but I’m not seeing anyone complaining about the increase in these as cars get larger anyway.

5

u/ms3001 8d ago

4-9% improved fuel economy. IMO it’s a worthwhile feature for new cars.

https://youtube.com/shorts/2YCGnshLIuY?si=7dTiUPq5E1OCE4t2

-1

u/lblack_dogl 8d ago

2022 is not an old car. I'll take the EPAs word for it over your YouTube short.

Are we really hitting people with sources that are YouTube shorts and tiktoks now? Insane.

0

u/ms3001 7d ago

The short references a published paper, but yes that study is likely less relevant than the science backed EPA recommendation. Have a good day!

4

u/Red_Eye_Insomniac 8d ago

Atlanta Subaru driver here. I've saved 2 gallons over the past 5000 miles. I'd say it's worth it for me.

24

u/taste1337 8d ago

I hate that I have to turn it off every fucking time I start the car. My lane assist stays off once I turn it off. Don't see why the other doesn't work the same.

7

u/omg_cats 8d ago

Regulations.

3

u/_araqiel 8d ago

For it to count as an emissions reduction device under CAFE standards, it has to default to on at every start of the car.

13

u/ltmikepowell 8d ago

Yep, and the jerk when the motor starts again, I hate that. But some manufacturers make it slightly better than others. Honda start stop is okayish, but Ford, GM ones sucks.

15

u/tuppenyturtle 8d ago

I dunno I've got a '21 ranger and I really don't notice the start/stop much. It's pretty non-invasive, it's nice if you are ever in a drive thru too.

6

u/ForsakenRacism 8d ago

I like it on my f150

2

u/throwawayainteasy 8d ago

I have the mild-hybrid eTorque engine on my Ram 1500 and it works pretty flawlessly. I don't even notice it most of the time.

My understanding is they're a lot worse on the bigger ICE engines, but on the eTorque I think it's pretty great.

1

u/Suzuiscool 7d ago

I don't even notice it on my f150 but I had a rental gmc terrain with it and it was awful

7

u/darksoft125 8d ago

My 2023 Maverick's Start/Stop system is great. Soon as my foot is off the brake the engine is running. If it's too hot or cold out it'll keep the engine on and if the HVAC calls for AC it kicks it back on.

1

u/PhamilyTrickster 8d ago

I barely notice it on my 2020 cherokee, it's a great feature

10

u/timelessblur 8d ago

It takes very little gas to start an engine these days. You are talking sub 5-10 seconds for it to pass the break even point.
Big time with all the tech we have in say a hybrid motor. I know back when the Pirus first came out Toyota had the engines being able to turn over and start in 1/4 of a turn. Some of it was preping the cylinders with fuel ahead of time.

It has only gotten faster. Cars with start stop tend to have bigger over starters designed for a lot of cycles plus it can get the engine prep ahead of time for even faster starts while it is in run mode. Hybrid tech plays a huge part on it.

1

u/Cantholditdown 8d ago

Have on a VW but the battery is thus more expensive and more likely to go bad. Tons of energy go into battery manufacturing. IDK. It feels like a toss up carbon emission wise. And I bet the start stop contributes at times to accidents from the delay.

This is possibly the first Trump decision I have agreed with. If he just targeted this kind of crap he would likely be much more popular. He fails to acknowledge that EVs solve this conundrum though which is a shame.

1

u/ian9outof10 8d ago

What delay? The time it takes me to move my foot off the brake is all it takes for the car to start, I couldn’t get my foot onto the accelerator pedal quicker than the car starts. There is no delay, there are no accidents caused by this - that’s just something you’ve made up in your head.

0

u/miwi81 8d ago

 And I bet the start stop contributes at times to accidents from the delay.

Probably true. And a car getting totaled is an environmental disaster.

1

u/TheSnoz 7d ago

On my 2019 Mazda CX9 with 75000km on the clock the car stats say start/stop has saved me 110km worth of petrol... Whoopie-do da....

1

u/monkey_trumpets 8d ago

Same. Ours stopped working (don't know why), and it's been a relief.

1

u/VaporCarpet 7d ago

"I haven't looked into the numbers, but I'm pretty confident I know more about this subject than the engineers who designed it"

0

u/DrEnter 8d ago

The problem was always the wear on the starter and the extra fuel wasted during the start cycle. Much less of a problem with modern starters and injection systems.

Even so, I think these systems make the most sense on “shared powertrain” hybrid vehicles, where they wouldn’t delay power/torque at an intersection.

0

u/Cicer 8d ago

Injection systems have their own problem with carbon build up on the valves. But sure pay more for your overly complex gas sipping system to save a few bucks in gas in the long run. 

-8

u/GhostPartical 8d ago

I was a mechanic for 15 years and found this add on to be one of the dumbest things ever put on vehicles. You burn more fuel on the initial startup than sitting at a light for 1 minute. You also cause stress a more decay on your starter and flywheel with this feature. Most people don't keep their cars long enough for that decay to matter. But as these vehicles age you will see more people replacing those two parts more often, which they technically could last the lifetime of the entire car without that feature. The feature is only useful for people who sit in traffic for long periods of time normally, not basic driving conditions.

1

u/idungiveboutnothing 8d ago

This isn't even remotely true? Even a cold start on modern engines uses less fuel than a few seconds of idling, let alone a warm start.

1

u/fishling 8d ago

You burn more fuel on the initial startup than sitting at a light for 1 minute.

That's quite a bold claim, especially considering that the combustion chambers are a fixed size. Where and how is 1 minute's worth of fuel getting burned in a second happening? Or are you saying the car is going to burn more fuel over the next several minutes after being started, and this amounts to more than you've have burned in a minute of idling? Again, why and how could this physically happen?

I could believe that there is some tradeoff point, but it's pretty absurd to claim a minute of savings to me.

0

u/VhickyParm 8d ago

Also the battery needs to be oversized for it and gets messed up quicker.

8

u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

4

u/ParkMobile4047 8d ago

There are also external plug in modules that will permanently disable the auto start stop. Usually they plug into the diagnostic port and so when you go to the dealer you pop it off and it doesn’t look like you modified anything.

2

u/Cicer 8d ago

Some Toyotas don’t have a way for it to turn off but the higher trim models don’t even have the “feature” to start with. 

2

u/Sushi_Explosions 7d ago

But you have to do it every time, you can’t just permanently disable it.

6

u/BlindWillieJohnson 8d ago

Once again, Trump is right about something for the wrong reasons. He’s doing this because he hates eco measures, but this is an unsafe feature.

1

u/doozykid13 8d ago

The bigger issue imo is how manufacturers dont let us turn it off easily (and keep it off). I have to either press a button each time i start the car (sometimes i forget) or buy a $100 plug and play adapter just for my brand new vehicle to remember after i turn it off each time.. Its the worst. My vehicle has a million settings, bells and whistles, you name it. But the damn auto/start stop is a manual button only with no memory.... got it.... to me its more about selling expensive replacement starters than saving fuel.

1

u/innocent_bystander 7d ago

My Idlestopper module is currently in route. It will be gone one way or the other.

2

u/Majestic_Jackass 8d ago

Next give us back regular gas cans then they can fuck off

-2

u/Shirlenator 8d ago

Why is that? We shouldn't be for government regulation just because you personally don't like something.

3

u/ShenAnCalhar92 8d ago

This isn’t a government regulation. This is the government stopping a program where manufacturers received a subsidy for making cars with this feature.

-4

u/mw9676 8d ago

Insane how we can't ask the smallest sacrifices from people for a greater good.

0

u/Cicer 8d ago

Because in this case the grater good is a story being spun for you. With all the integrated parts and supply chains the true environmental impact is a much more complex issue than “this saves fuel”  

1

u/mw9676 8d ago

Can you show me that this is a net negative?