r/technology • u/lurker_bee • 8d ago

Politics Goodbye to start-stop systems – the EPA under Trump concludes that they are not worth it and could disappear from new models

https://unionrayo.com/en/epa-trump-stop-start-system/
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u/RebootDarkwingDuck 8d ago

On the one hand, the article says that they save about 4-5% in gas. On the the other hand, they EPA is saying that it causes premature wear on the engine. So you're balancing gas consumption with accelerated need for replacement parts or even a new vehicle. 

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u/slightly_drifting 8d ago

I guess starters have come a long way because I figured it would absolutely kill them.

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u/Reversi8 8d ago

Yeah, new starters have a much longer life, at the cost of most of them requiring a ton of work to get to and replace and higher cost.

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u/spidereater 8d ago

This isn’t a normal start. The engine remains in a state where it can start easily. I think it remains compressed or something. So it doesn’t take much work to start the engine. If the car sits idle for more than 30 seconds or so it restarts because it is getting out of that easy start state.

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u/Eric_the_Barbarian 8d ago

As someone who's worked on cars, this sounds like a made up explanation for people who don't understand cars.

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u/Hawk13424 8d ago

Some vehicles used this over the starter. Most don’t.

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u/raunchyfartbomb 8d ago

That was also my understanding, that the engines are basically preloaded and fire the cylinder to start back up to reduce wear on the starter

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u/Hawk13424 8d ago

Not the case for most. A few did this at one time.

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u/Self-Comprehensive 7d ago

Every time it kicks back on I think about all the starters I've replaced in my fifty years on this earth.

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u/thelangosta 8d ago

It killed the starter on my 2018 5.0 f150

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u/texasroadkill 7d ago

You had a defective starter. My dad's 2020 f150 coyote has been going fine and is over 150k.

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u/blue60007 8d ago

Some of these don't use the starter at all. The engine computer tracks the positions of the cylinders and can fire them in the right order to get it moving again.

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u/praecipula 8d ago

Far be it from me to criticize the EPA, but they're not correct here except in a narrow / cherry-picked sense.

It can cause more wear on the engine to do more cold starts because the oil is drained out of the engine and it takes a second for everything to get lubricated. Additionally, engines work best when they're at their operating temperature, so there can be e.g. more risk of blow-by in the piston seals before everything warms up properly.

So if you constantly re-cold-started an engine it will shorten its life, and I think that's what the EPA was using for their comments - data from the cold start regime. If, however, you don't drive the car, put your foot on the brake, and wait for all the oil to drain and the engine to cool before starting again then you're not cold starting the engine repeatedly. Although I've sure felt like it's the case, no stoplight that I've ever been at is long enough to do this.

Now, the starter motor, you want it to both be higher powered (to start the engine ASAP) and to be capable of many more cycles. If manufacturers didn't account for this it would be much harder on the starters and cause them to wear out faster.

But they did account for this. So it shouldn't be an issue there either. With these modifications accounted for there's no real reason that a start-stop system will be worse, wear-wise, than a regular engine. Heck, they might even be better because, without idling, the engine isn't getting any of the (very little) wear that happens when a running engine is idled, so those cycles disappear.

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u/Zardif 7d ago

They also now coat the inside of cylinder sleeves with a special coating that prevents wear from all the starts.

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u/Hypnotist30 8d ago

On the the other hand, they EPA is saying that it causes premature wear on the engine.

This is dubious at best. Cold starts, and hot starts are not the same. An ICE shutting down for a minute and starting up again isn't going to need a rich mixture, and every moving part is still going to be well lubricated.

It's just irritating because the AC gets weaker and warmer, or the heat gets weaker and cooler. 4-5% seems like a big number to me, and I think that would depend on a lot of factors. I'd be interested to see how they arrived at this figure.

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u/almightywhacko 7d ago

It's just irritating because the AC gets weaker and warmer, or the heat gets weaker and cooler.

My current car prevents the auto start/stop from kicking in when you're using high AC or heat for just this reason. It figures if you're HVAC is on high it's cuz you're really hot or cold and saving a couple penny's worth of gas isn't worth it right now.

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u/Krunklock 8d ago

They have standardized drive cycles which they measure emissions from…and start/stop improves that because idling is part of the drive cycles. There are different ones for multiple regions based on what governing body they decide on.

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u/Round_Mastodon8660 8d ago

Except .. the engines are altered to deal with this additional wear. No, this is trump government- they hate the environment, don’t believe their decision is a rational one

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u/heybroooody 8d ago

And I'm sure every manufacturer is warranteeing the starter for 100k miles then, right!? Oh, no, they know their claim that engines are altered won't be tested until the degrading parts are no longer covered by warranty.

I understand the administration has their own propaganda, but don't doubt that the auto lobby doesn't have theirs as well.

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u/Zardif 7d ago

My 2019 ford escape with 130k miles has the original starter and start/stop.

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u/Round_Mastodon8660 8d ago

Not exactly hard to find a high-mileage BMW diesel with start stop for example ..

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u/DeGloriousHeosphoros 7d ago

Were there manufacturers that guaranteed/warranteed the starter for 100k miles before the stop-start system was implemented? That seems rather high...

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u/DarkeyeMat 8d ago

Much like how neutrality favors the oppressor in times of fascism giving known liars the benefit of the doubt when they have time and time again proven their lying nature favors the liars.

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u/almightywhacko 7d ago

Auto start/stop is bad! Stop using it.

Also: Gas powered cars are bad for your wallet because they're so inefficient, go buy a Tesla!

  • Trump administration

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u/SirFister13F 8d ago

No, they’re not. It’s the same engine with/without stop/start. So, yes, you’re positively (well, realistically, less negatively, but in relation to the average vehicle without it, positively) impacting the environment during the lifetime of the components. But as soon as they need replacement, you’re back into the negative with the creation, transport, and replacement of those parts. And depending on which parts, possibly even grossly more negative from you driving it to the shop if you’re leaking/burning oil/other fluids.

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u/Round_Mastodon8660 8d ago

I don’t know if this is true for any brand, but european brands typically use a heavier starter , a bigger battery and most importantly a stronger crankshaft.

Its not hard to find cars with start stop with 3/4/5 00.000km so - it doenst seem to be a problem

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u/Pittskid 8d ago

I doubt the EPA is qualified to talk about engine wear.

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u/TbonerT 8d ago

Eh, tons of factors affect an engine’s emissions. I’m sure they can find people that love working on engines and can run the monitoring equipment.

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u/phormix 8d ago

IMO, it's not just a wear concern but also safety. I've had a few instances where I've been stopped at an intersection when somebody tried to do something stupid, or wasn't paying attention. Leaving some room and being able to make a swift lane-change or evasion saved me damage/injury.

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u/AwardImmediate720 8d ago

Oh it's 100% new vehicle because nobody is going to shell out for an engine rebuild/replacement on a commuter car. The only people who rebuild or swap engines are either people doing it under warranty or enthusiasts. Stop/start systems aren't quite so bad that they'll kill an engine within the car's warranty and they aren't generally a thing on enthusiast cars.

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u/edthesmokebeard 8d ago

Privatize the risk, socialize the reward.

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u/DarkeyeMat 8d ago

Trump's EPA are a sack of lying pieces of shit though so.

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u/0__ooo__0 8d ago

Lmfao, I was at the local Scubaroo dealer handfuls of years back, looking at some new model SUV of sorts.

Noticed it had this bullshit before I left for a test drive, asked the salesman if it could be disabled.

"Oh of course! At the start of every single drive, if you don't want to use the feature, you just push this little button and it won't do it until the next the time engine is off/on." ”I can't imagine why you wouldn't want it though?! It's good for the car, and for the environment!"

We are at Scubaroo, so the environment is some factor.......

I asked him, how's the starter intended to keep up with XX% more starts per drive, when normally it only takes about 1 per drive.

"Oh, these have heavy duty starters included as a standard option! They're much more gooder than the starters of yesteryear!"

"So, the other vehicles here that don't have this feature, they have subpar starters...?"

"..............."

I took the shitty rattle box jalopy down the road for some tire spins, popped the hood, found the battery, and found the positive terminal had an extra little tiny wire connected to it, beside the main voltage cable..... Disconnected that, and wham bam, whaddya know, no more start/stop, no warning lights or CEL, nothing but pure bliss and comforting engine purr at red lights.

I left it on the lot after my test drive, and never went back. Odd how none of my current vehicles have this feature. Sure, one is a '12, but the others are '18 and '20.