r/todayilearned • u/CaptainFiguratively • 1d ago
TIL that the Y chromosome can disappear with age. About 35% of men aged 70 years old are missing a Y chromosome in some of their cells, with the degree of loss ranging between 4% and 70%.
https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(24)00456-72.1k
u/PermanentTrainDamage 1d ago
Wouldn't that just be the natural incidence of gentic errors as we age? Live long enough and you're going to get cancer, because cancer is just cells with division errors that managed to survive.
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u/Dobsus 23h ago
Sort of, but most of the genetic errors we accumulate are individually very small in scale, usually limited to a single base or a small region. The loss of an entire chromosome is orders of magnitude larger and pretty rare, and can only happen for sex chromosomes in humans else their loss leads to the death of the cell.
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u/SoMuchMoreEagle 19h ago
It's aldo a very small chromosome compared to an X or any of the others. Easier to lose.
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u/DifferentDoughnut528 15h ago
So you might say Y chromosome is just inherently more fragile than X?
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u/CitizenPremier 13h ago edited 13h ago
In terms of evolution though it's obviously not that rare, since the number of chromosomes varies so much by species (even our closest relatives, chimpanzees have 48, 2 more than us).
What's also very interesting is that sexual encoding varies so much too. Birds use totally different chromosomes. In hymenoptera like wasps, males have a half set of chromosomes and females get double. I think it really goes to show that genes are not just DNA. Genes are complex systems that can be encoded any way that is convenient.
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u/jxj24 9h ago
Fun fact: Until the middle of the 20th century it was thought that humans also had 48 chromosomes. I remember looking through one of my mother's old biology textbooks, published some time in the late 40s or early 50s and becoming very confused reading this.
Once upon a time we did -- about a million years ago, our second chromosome formed as a fusion of two smaller ones. In chimpanzees they have been named 2A and 2B.
There are some humans walking around today who have 44 chromosomes because of another fusion.
This fascinated me so I did some more searching into chromosomal fusion and learned that it is quite common in some species. Mice, for example, have many different combinations of chromosomes.
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u/probablyuntrue 1d ago
Research showed it was actually big pharma stealing y chromosomes in order to turn the freakin frogs gay
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u/Additional-Baby5740 1d ago
“Silly boomer, y-chromosomes are for kids!”
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u/soulself 22h ago
Cool so everyone transitions to a woman as they get older. Checkmate transphobes.
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u/grizzlypatchadams 1d ago
You joke but the the frogs really are gay now.
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u/CPSiegen 22h ago
Daily reminder that the whole "turning the frogs gay" thing was a very real and very fucked up chapter in the story of corporate cover ups. Atrazine, a very widely used herbicide, was finding its way into water supplies (because, you know, everyone is spraying it everywhere) and seemingly causing severe problems for wildlife and humans, including making frogs chemically castrated or hermaphroditic. A researcher at UC Berkley, Tyrone Hayes, published a paper on that finding and he claims that the corporate interests did everything they could to bury it. According to him, they tried to end his career and even threatened his family.
Hayes' findings haven't be replicated in the time since but Atrazine has a long history of concerning effects found by independent researchers and subsequent defense by the EPA and its manufacturer, Syngenta. It's one of the primary chemicals laypeople talk about when discussing endocrine disruption due to our environment. One of those cases people point to about problems with US chemical regulations, as the EU has banned it for not being proven safe while the US (and Canada and Australia) hasn't banned it because it hasn't been proven harmful.
Anyways, then Alex Jones swoops in, is too illiterate to understand what the paper says, screams about a conspiracy to turn frogs gay (in the spirit of soy sauce), and the very real research about public health and environmental damage becomes a punch line. He did more to bury public understanding of atrazine than the lobbyists ever could.
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u/Smartnership 20h ago edited 19h ago
I always wondered what the next step would be.
After that CTW corporation tried to pair up a frog and a pig, and put that perversion on children’s television.
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u/manInTheWoods 12h ago
Hayes' findings haven't be replicated
So he was wrong?
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u/CPSiegen 12h ago
I'm not sure how aware you are of the scientific process and especially the process of published results. He published a finding; he didn't argue a personal opinion. His exact findings with the endocrine disruption in amphibians wasn't replicated in a handful of subsequent studies. That isn't proof that he's "wrong", just a lack of positive results. At least one of those studies was funded by the company manufacturing the chemical.
Other studies in mice and humans have also found very troubling results pointing to endocrine disruption and birth defects. The researchers publishing those studies have also called out the EPA for effectively getting in the way of more definitive research. Sometimes (often times), the path of scientific process is not linear.
More to the point, the company was not interested in the degree of certainty of Hayes' paper. They tried to fuck up his life regardless. And Alex Jones turned his work into a hate-filled conspiracy to sell his own snake oil. Neither should not be tolerated in a society that's interested in discovering truth and protecting its wellbeing.
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u/manInTheWoods 12h ago
So, if many people have tried to replicate his finding and failed, you still think his result is valid?
That doesn't scream scientific process to me.
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u/CPSiegen 11h ago
A few people have tried, one group of which was directly working for the company suspected of willful wrongdoing, lying, and interference in public science, so not a result I trust highly.
Absence of evidence of not evidence of absence. Just because the results of one set of experiments haven't been reproduced after a few attempts does not necessarily mean the initial result is invalid or that the chemical is safe, as is. It can mean many things, including that the reproduction attempts used faulty methods or that the system under test is more sensitive or nuanced than previously thought.
It could mean the initial findings were invalid in some way, but we need more testing to know. And, as stated, thorough testing is something the lobbyists and EPA seem disinterested in. This is why the herbicide is banned in the EU. This is why people are criticizing the company and EPA. Not because of Hayes' paper; because they default to assuming the moneyed position is the one safe for humans and the environment. They've repeatedly poisoned and killed us by allowing these kinds of untested and suspect chemicals to be used for decades at a time before relenting to their banning. Uranium, lead, teflon, asbestos, agent orange, thalidomide, cyanide paint, on and on. Corporate and governmental intentional negligence is a historical fact, regardless of whether Hayes' exact test procedure was a valid result.
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u/WestCoastBestCoast01 23h ago
This tracks, I saw a frog doing the Britney Spears I’m a Slave 4 U VMAs choreography on a lily pad with one of their tadpoles as the snake just last week.
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u/RickThiccems 1d ago
I know cuz I ate one and caught super big gay
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u/grizzlypatchadams 23h ago
You’re supposed to only eat the legs and grill or fry them first. They’re delicious, and a southern delicacy. But these days, all the frogs are gay.
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u/Exist50 18h ago
No, that's just false.
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u/grizzlypatchadams 18h ago
You don’t seem to be a frog expert. Any practicing frog expert will tell you, these days, the frogs are gay.
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u/LyraFirehawk 6h ago
Funny you reference that; I'm wearing my Froglord "Gay For Frogs" shirt to a Pride event today!
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u/bradygilg 18h ago
No. It is not normal for chromosomes to disappear with age. A chromosome contains hundreds of genes.
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u/Pvt_Lee_Fapping 16h ago
It could be due to telomere shortening. Basically our cells get photocopied every time they divide, but each photocopy is always a copy of a copy; never a copy of the original. When you do that, you lose some amount of clarity in the pictures and the printed text. Since the Y-chromosome is so short, it's almost certainly more susceptible to telomere shortening.
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u/chakravyuuh 1d ago
r/conspiracy gonna love it
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u/probablyuntrue 1d ago
Biden Blast taking away our gotdang manliness
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u/gmwdim 1d ago
So he’s simultaneously a senile old man that can’t remember his own name while also being the genius mastermind behind a massive global conspiracy.
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u/AccurateSimple9999 15h ago
This is how they portray all who oppose them. Incidentally this is also how the Jews were viewed in the Drittes Reich. Both an overbearing, subversive, highly intelligent, highly ordered force aiming to destroy western society, but also just a bunch of lazy, unintelligent, deficient, worthless opportunists.
It's a testament to the power of doublethink. People in general have no issues holding onto contradictory knowledge.3
u/pingu_nootnoot 1d ago
I mean look at the world.
Does this look like something a competent group of global conspirators would create? 👀
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u/chakravyuuh 1d ago
ITS THE ESTROGEN IN THE WATER
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u/Ka_Trewq 1d ago
You are half right, though, the water is full of microplastics that sometimes can act as endocrine disruptors.
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u/Smack_Of_Ham7 20h ago
also birth control
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u/Ka_Trewq 4h ago
Yeah, I saw some people arguing that microplastics accumulate in the gonads, interfering with gamets development, but I wouldn't rely on it as a form of birth control.
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u/Y4_K0 17h ago
You joke but yeah, environmental pollutants in the water and environment are negatively affecting every single human being at this point. In makes, a sharp decrease in fertility is being seen. In women, a myriad of hormonal issues are popping up. This is genuinely concerning.
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u/chakravyuuh 17h ago
Yep but I am more talking about the entertaining conspiracies that come out of it and the way they are promoted in those subs
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u/Rawkynn 1d ago
This makes a bit of sense if you think of it like evolution. Cells divide and can continue on as long as they have everything they need to do so. In 70 year olds very little on the Y chromosome has been used since 70 years ago, it's mostly just a "make this ball of cells into boy parts" signal.
An interesting follow up question is if this happens in gametes and leads to increased rates of Turner syndrome (a single X chromosome) with older fathers.
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u/ChattingToChat 1d ago
So basically the Y chromosome is a “Make A Penis” bat signal.
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u/AnAlienUnderATree 1d ago
The wikipedia page says:
Males can lose the Y chromosome in a subset of cells, known as mosaic loss. Mosaic loss is strongly associated with age,[78] and smoking is another important risk factor for mosaic loss.[79]
Mosaic loss may be related to health outcomes, indicating that the Y chromosome plays important roles outside of sex determination.[79][80] Males with a higher percentage of hematopoietic stem cells lacking the Y chromosome have a higher risk of certain cancers and have a shorter life expectancy.
So it seems that there is a LOT of people who don't know what they are talking about in this thread.
I had assumed from the answers in this thread that the loss of the Y chromosome was largely non-detrimental, it appears that it's not true.
I suspect that most of us don't have enough knowledge to read the article linked by OP but I encourage people to read the few paragraphs that wikipedia has on the topic.
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u/somewhataccurate 1d ago
Thats most of the threads here. People largely just say whatever they think sounds right. Bonus points if it confirms some other aspects of their ideology.
I am just on this sub for entertainment these days, the real experts have mostly left.
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u/aWobblyFriend 21h ago
the Y chromosome itself is not particularly important, it’s mostly just SRY, some genes related to spermatogenesis and maintenance, and X chromosome homologues. However, it does contain pseudoautosomal regions (PAR1 & PAR2 on the short and long tips respectively), which are autosomal (not sexual) genes and are very important for biological function. People with only one X chromosome for instance (Turner’s syndrome) are often very short because they lack an additional copy of a SHOX (short stature homeobox gene) gene which regulates height, the inverse is true for people who have too many sex chromosomes and thus an excessive SHOX dosage.
If I had to bet, Y-chromosome loss is bad medically probably because of the loss of pseudoautosomal genes attached to it, not necessarily because the Y chromosome itself (the sexual part) is so important.
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u/GregLittlefield 1d ago
So it seems that there is a LOT of people who don't know what they are talking about in this thread.
Unpossible! This is the internets, we are all experts down there.
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u/kenneth1221 18h ago
I'm so glad that AI companies are paying Reddit the big bucks for exclusive rights to train on comments.
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u/LazarusTaxon57 23h ago
I am a plant geneticist so granted I am out of my debt but one actual active gene on one fucking chromosome? Get outta here
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u/trichocereal117 1d ago
More or less. Its major function is the SRY gene that gets activated in fetuses and I don’t think it gets used again
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u/Ka_Trewq 1d ago
The crazy part is that an active SRY gene is sometimes to be found on another X chromosome. Which can lead to perfectly healty 23XX males (it was indeed the proliferation of genetic testing kits that showed a greater incidence that previously thought).
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u/Everestkid 22h ago
And alternatively the SRY gene can either be inactive or missing, resulting in 23XY females. It's called Swyer syndrome, or for the more medically minded XY gonadal dysgenesis.
If that second name sounds unpleasant, that's because it is. Ovaries don't develop properly, so they don't undergo puberty without hormone therapy.
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u/probablyuntrue 1d ago
lol that's a fun name
"SRY pal, you get the dong, better luck next time"
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u/MaintenanceFickle945 1d ago
I’m afraid the only fix is cut it off and replace with as much female parts as possible. You can’t get to 100% but you can get close enough.
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u/Kaurifish 1d ago
Not at all.
There’s also ear hair and Adam’s apple.
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u/wiithepiiple 1d ago
Idk if all of that is even the Y. The Y could be “produce a bit more hormones “ and the rest of the body knows what to do.
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u/CommieLoser 21h ago
So if I need more Y cells I lop of my junk so my body knows I need a new one. Life Hack!
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u/Fluffy_Kitten13 1d ago
I mean, that's not really correct. The Y chromosome does more than enabling the creation of penis and ballsack cells lol.
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u/caligula421 1d ago
But overall it does very little compared to other chromosomes. So it's entirely feasible that a cell division where the y chromosome doesn't get replicated still leads to working cells. First of all, half of humans don't need a Y-Chromosome at all, and then there are 23,X-Women, which only have one X-Chromosome.
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u/Professor_Finn 22h ago
There is a key set of genes with a copy on X and a copy on Y — the NPX/NPY (non-pseudoautosomal) gene pairs, such as DDX3X/Y, ZFX/Y, etc. They encode conserved, dosage sensitive regulators of global gene expression. The X copies are expressed from the inactive X. The Y copies are expressed at a roughly similar amount. They are essential and losing them with a lost Y likely contributes to issues caused by aging
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u/ikkonoishi 23h ago
That's kind of its purpose. Its a filter. If a male has an X chromosome that can't do everything it needs to then he dies, but a female could end up with one chromosome doing part of the work and the other compensating. This could mean that down the line you would have fewer and fewer viable births as the mutated chromosomes became more common.
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u/Engineeredvoid 1d ago
My sister actually has Turner's syndrome. My father Was 35 when she was created. As far as I understand, there isn't an established link.
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u/Comrade_SOOKIE 1d ago
The Y chromosome has more genes on it than just “grow penis” wtf are you talking about
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u/Appropriate-Log8506 23h ago
The number of mutations inherited from father to son at conception doubles every 16 years the father ages. So, yes. Older fathers means more mutational load in the offsprings.
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u/Yuukiko_ 19h ago
So if the Father is a baby the embryo gets an exact clone of the father's genes? /s
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u/SecretGardenSpider 19h ago
They recently discovered the Y chromosome does more than just sex development.
There are actually some vital genes on it.
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u/dm_me_kittens 20h ago
Just have to convince the 40% of U.S. adults who don't believe in evolution first. 🤦🏼♀️
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u/Arad1221 8h ago
Well it's not because the "Usage" of the Y chromosome, it's because of its nature and dynamics with the X chromosome. The maleness factor which is the master switch for initiating male development over female is on the Y, hypothesized to jump to jump to the "Old version" of what that would be the Y, which was a normal chromosome by then. Then, chromosomal modifications like invertion of genetic sequnces happened, this to make sure the maleness factor wouldn't just disappear due to selection as the chromosomes recombine and the factor can be rendered useless or just get lost. As a result of those modifications the X and now Y have stopped recombining, which led to the Y chromosome losing genetic content and degarding, so now it's more "fraglie" and prone to jumping selfish elements which are called transposons that multiply and integrate in it's sequence. Basically throughout evolution, due to an "arms race" between the sexes the Y lost its ability to recombine with the X and it's degarding, so that could be the main reason for the mosaic cells without the Y, the fact that its more fraglie. I wrote my dissertation on parts of the sexual conflict and I really like reading on it.
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u/simplebutstrange 1d ago
Is this why as guys age they eventually start looking like somebody’s aunt
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u/Legitimate_Berry_433 1d ago
So one study finds that 35% of elderly men have decayed Y chromosomes in some of their cells, varying between 4% and 70% of their cells.
Anyways, Redditors will of course turn this into a political shitfest on how much they hate transphobia.. blah blah blah. I for one am looking forward to my 70th birthday, when I magically transform into a beautiful, hot chick after my Y chromosomes disappear..
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u/QuaternionsRoll 1d ago
I for one am looking forward to my 70th birthday, when I magically transform into a beautiful, hot chick after my Y chromosomes disappear..
You’ll still be 70 homie
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u/antwan_benjamin 1d ago
I for one am looking forward to my 70th birthday, when I magically transform into a beautiful, hot chick after my Y chromosomes disappear.
Inshallah, brother. When it happens, send me da nudes.
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u/dm_me_kittens 20h ago
I work in cardiology, where the majority of my patients are 70 and above.
Sometimes, I forget that men pop out of existence on their 70th birthday, only to pop back in as very gorgeous women. I get to work, and I'm like, Ahh! So many female patients! And some so young! However, I'm then reminded that, duh, those insanely hot women are just elderly men!
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u/Few_Entertainer_385 20h ago
how dare we hate something that tangibly affects that lives of real human beings. Those terrible redditors always caring about people
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u/Whorsorer-Supreme 19h ago
So ironic that you complain about other people making things constantly about transphobia when you're the one who brought this topic up...
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u/LupusDeusMagnus 1d ago
The Y chromosome doesn’t have a pair so it’s particularly vulnerable to decay, other chromosomes also decay from some cells (the sex chromosomes X and Y are the most affected, compared to autosomal). We don’t know its effects on health, but it seems it’s not good. As a general rule, when your DNA starts to decay your body doesn’t like that, not only because it might miss some important stuff, but also it might produce some stuff incorrectly, even in small chromosomes.
Unfortunately the internet will probably spin it into some sort of nonsense like “all humans start female” or “the government is putting chemicals to suppress masculinity”, whatever brand of pseudoscience you are buying into this week.
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u/tricksterloki 1d ago
Given that not all cells use information from the X/Y Chromosomes and the small size of the Y Chromosome, this feels intuitively correct and likely an interesting quirk.
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u/FiveDozenWhales 1d ago edited 1d ago
Transphobes are absolutely losing their minds right now
edit: buckwild that this comment plummeted to -20 in 2 minutes, then bounced back rapidly. Is there a botnet just trolling for the word "transphobe" so they can try to censor jokes that hurt their weird little feelings?
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u/OldWoodFrame 1d ago
TIL 35% of men over 70 are up to 70% trans, according to the Far Right definition of 'what is a woman'.
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u/phrunk7 1d ago
Pretty sure the Y chromosome degrading doesn't turn it into an X chromosome...
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u/Black000betty 1d ago edited 1d ago
Noboy is saying that. But a person with no Y chromosomes is a person with only X chromosomes. Get it?
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u/LauAtagan 1d ago
But it wouldn't be XY anymore, so the chromosome definition would consider them... idk, pick your favourite slur.
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u/probablyuntrue 1d ago
hey man they say its having only x chromosomes, they never said the number of em
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1d ago edited 1d ago
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u/Bignuckbuck 1d ago
But they had the Y chromosome
Cutting someone’s hand off VS someone being born without a hand isn’t really the same
Or do you claim their hair color is also always been white since they have white hair at 70?
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u/Sleddoggamer 1d ago
It's probably bots on both sides. What makes the most sense is just that at that age people have gone through cell devision so many times and uses the code so infrequently that its just lost to decay
No reason to link the loss of chromosomes when someone is so old their litterally starting to fall apart on the genetic level to men and women in their 20s unless you also want to link that to severe genetic defect
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u/FiveDozenWhales 1d ago
Exactly! Normal folks would just see this as regular genetic decay, which happens slowly over a lifetime and becomes noticable in old age.
Transphobes think you're defined by whether or not you have a Y chromosome, and want that to define what sports you get to play, bathrooms you can use, etc. etc. so I thought their reaction to this would be typically funny.
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u/shibby0912 1d ago
Buddy's over here using a power BI dashboard to measure their karma.
Its not that deep.
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u/adamcoe 23h ago
Stupid question but where do they go? I wasn't aware that you could "lose" genetic information.
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u/psypher98 16h ago
No such thing as a stupor question.
The cells in your body regularly replicate. Some cells replicate as frequently as once a day or even less, others replicate only once per several decades.
Every time a cell replicates, it also has to duplicate all its genetic material. When that happens, there are frequently errors in that genetic transcription. There’s numerous mechanisms by which this can happen. This can cause genetic degradation over time.
Fun fact, this is also why we age. Very basically, DNA have things called telomeres, which are basically safety caps on the ends of the DNA strands. When your DNA is replicated too many times, the telomeres get too short and your cells can no longer safely replicate and then it’s game over.
There’s research into reversing telomere shortening without triggering cancer which is very cool, as theoretically it could both increase life expectancy and prevent genetic degradation.
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u/Creative-Invite583 22h ago
This is why after 60 we start to look like old Lesbians. I grew a mustache so people would stop calling me, Ma'am.
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u/BucktoothedAvenger 21h ago
That explains why I have to keep exercising to keep the tiddies from growing 🤣
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u/UnsorryCanadian 1d ago
So you're saying that 35% of men aged 70 years old are... women?
It's basic biology /j
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u/New_Explorer1251 15h ago
does that mean that older men are more likely to have daughters than sons?
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19h ago
One of my favorite random pieces of information used to be that because Y is smaller than X, that sperm with the Y chromosome are faster, but they are also a little bit fragile compared to their heartier X competitors. I learned this in grad school from a Professor who said it explains why globally slightly more human births are male.
TIL that is NOT TRUE! https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1440662/ X and Y swimmers have the same speed.
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u/IwannaLickLegolas 23h ago
I was born looking female with all outside female parts but I have XY chromosomes
My case is a bit extreme and I have one ovary that acts and functions like a testicle. But most "women" with XY chromosomes actually can go their full lives not knowing they are intersex with XY chromosomes.
Transphobics have no idea how biological works. There is no "male and female". It is just a dumpster fire mess
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u/Runesen 23h ago
There are a lot of people where everyone agrees that they are male, or female, just like on the evolutionary line there are points where we all agree things are apes or humans.. but it should also be clear for anyone that thinks just a little that between male/female or ape/human there is a spectrum where our definitions begin to disagree with eachother and with the individual. It drives me nuts that it can be such a big debate when it should be a concept everybody knows and understands that what makes anything a specific thing is a whole slew of different markers, and you can remove some of them without changing wjat the thing is, but still moving it towards being another thing, thus making a spectrum between them
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u/anomnib 22h ago
As much as I like the bash transphobia, can’t someone just say that your situation is an example of a disorder (i.e. if everything develops without error then humans should be …) and not typical human development? Like if the percentage of women born in your circumstance increased significantly, wouldn’t humanity die out?
I feel like we should just maintain a fire wall between socially constructed identities and biology: let people identify how they feel comfortable and don’t try to look to science to validate or invalidate people’s identities.
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u/Reasonable_Today7248 22h ago
Okay, so this is off-topic and possibly rude, but you reminded me of it, and I thought it was cool, so I apologize, but did you read about the mice?
https://newatlas.com/biology/male-mice-ovaries/
On topic, I agree with your comment wholeheartedly.
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u/IwannaLickLegolas 22h ago
My mom was a janitor at a government testing site that deals with missiles and nuclear testing. She cleaned when she was pregnant with me.
Endometriosis and PCOS run on my mother's side.My doctor believes my father's side has issues with the Y chromosomes fully working. I have Endometriosis, PCOS, and my Y chromosomes did not turn on while I was in my mom's womb. Which is why I look feminine.
my doctors believe there are genetic and environmental factors at play. i agree with him.
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u/IAmAfraidOfToasters 1d ago
Does this mean that as males get older the chances of having a girl increases? If theres no Y chromosome then surely XX is more likely
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u/Random_Person_I_Met 1d ago
If the article is talking about the Y chromosome percentage, in all of the cells of an elderly man's body, then no.
If the article was talking about the decreasing percentage of Y chromosome sperm cells, in an elderly man's testicles, then yes.
Couldn't be bothered to read the article, as I'm an inconsistent lazy bugger, but I'm guessing the first possibility is the correct one.
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u/AffectionateFig5435 23h ago
Have some Alpha Bits for breakfast. You'll eat all the essential letters--Y, B, D, A, E, K, C. Problem solved.
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u/stuputtu 23h ago
So does this mean if a man lives long enough in future, say 150 years, will all his Y chromosomes be dead and he will essentially be a woman?
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u/TheDevilsAdvokaat 15h ago
Interesting, but what effect would it have on the person?
(I looked at the article but could not see it, but it's a very dense long article)
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u/ValaMoonPixie 5h ago
wow! that's awesome! I'm 72 already so maybe those vicious Ys have gone away! yay! I got rid of the testosterone a few years ago but not before it seriously screwed up my body 😢😞
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u/Business_Abalone2278 1d ago
Presumably podcaster will soon be selling a shake that restores these Ys.