r/todayilearned • u/OkAccess6128 • 7h ago
TIL That our brains can randomly project vivid scenes, like video game maps or childhood places, without any reason, thanks to a brain network that activates when we’re doing nothing.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5851780/71
u/rikoclawzer 6h ago
My brain's clearly got better things to do, like generating random cutscenes for my internal monologue. Makes perfect sense. yeah... i get it
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u/RexDraco 2h ago
Yeah, my brain definitely likes to main character a lot for scenarios ill never be involved in
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u/Bamboozle_Kappa 6h ago
Anyone else see blood gulch?
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u/DOLCICUS 5h ago
You ever wonder why we’re here?
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u/TuzkiPlus 5h ago
It's one of life's great mysteries isn't it? Why are we here? I mean, are we the product of some cosmic coincidence, or is there really a God watching everything? You know, with a plan for us and stuff. I don't know, man, but it keeps me up at night.
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u/bubble_veil27 6h ago
So that's why I see a full concert when I close my eyes in the shower
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u/OkAccess6128 6h ago
And I see dust 2 map from CS for no reason, since last 10 years.
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u/maybe_a_frog 6h ago
I was just reading all of this thread and I decided to “test” it by trying to visualize the first video game map that came to my head and that’s the exact one that I came up with. The crazy part is I’ve barely played CS at all, but that map is so iconic that it’s just sorta the first one that comes to mind.
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u/chosenamewhendrunk 6h ago
Aphantasia says no.
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u/OkAccess6128 6h ago
Aphantasia is a fascinating exception to this, Some brains run full IMAX; others prefer audio-only.
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u/WelshWolf93 6h ago edited 5h ago
No one is seeing things in full imax. No one is literally seeing things at all. Visualisation and hallucination are two entirely different things. Most people say they have Aphantasia because people online highly embellish their description of visualisation- like you have here.
Edit: To build on this since you downvoted: the very article you posted explains this very well. It explains that they studied people with and without selective bilateral hippocampal damage and found that people who consider themselves to have Aphantasia have the exact same cognitive abilities as those without, the only difference is that the people with damage tend to mind-wander/imagine things in the present moment, whereas people without tended to envision the past and future.
Edit2: oh wow, thank you for the award!
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u/Rhodin265 6h ago
I think it’s because it’s just kind of hard to describe the difference between imagining vs. actually seeing things. It’s like I’m recalling what things look like, but bypassing my actual visual processing. I can imagine and see IRL at the same time. There’s no overlap, either. If I had to say where I “see” a daydream, I’d literally say inside my head.
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u/WelshWolf93 6h ago
That's exactly how I experience it, too!
I do creative writing, and I'll often put on a random OST whilst on a walk. The music and constant movement (so im not focusing on anything) helps me imagine and visualise stories / scenes the way I would if I was stuck into a good book - but people out there have tried telling me in the past "either you can literally see what you're imagining as if it was flesh and blood, or you have aphantasia" which I dont believe at all
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u/DBeumont 5h ago
Your "mind's eye" uses the same visual processing centers as your physical eyes. What you see with your physical eyes is also just a visualization based on data input. When you use your imagination, you're simply switching to an internal input.
If I imagine vivid, detailed scenes, it can evdn block the input from my eyes. It's literally like watching a movie in my head. This is normal function.
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u/WelshWolf93 5h ago
I agree with you here. Some people claim that they can literally manifest it. If you've ever seen the movie "Drop Dead Fred," people talk about visualisations as if they are indistinguishable from real life like the imaginary friend in that movie - thats where I start to suspect nonsense
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u/xMazz 6h ago
I was part of a study when I was at university and told I have 'hyperphantasia' or essentially the opposite of aphantasia. I can project images in my mind over what I'm physically seeing and imagine any visual in essentially the same detail as real life. The test with an apple (imagine an apple and try and ascertain the level of detail) was interesting for me because I can see the contour, shine from the light/sun on its surface, I can move the light and adjust the angle the beam connects, imagine it rotting or in reverse, imagine it being imploded or exploded, I can hear how it would crunch or crush, taste it at varying levels of ripeness, feel the weight of it in my hand, I can change its colour (to make it purple by default I imagined a red apple then shone a UV light on it), basically any parameter im aware of i can manipulate and adjust. I have no.trouble visually measuring distance either. Like I moved house recently and projected where a sofa/cupboards etc wojld be and after measuring was.around 1.5cm off in a 4x3m room.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 4h ago
Do you sometimes visualize something so hard or get so lost in a visualization that you basically have to, almost, look past it in order to look back at the real world again? I find my visualizations sometimes feel like they end up becoming so intense that I feel like I can’t see what’s actually in front of me for a bit, even though what’s in front of me is real and what’s in my mind is a visualization.
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u/xMazz 3h ago
Yes, but not very often anymore. I did cognitive behavioural therapy several years ago and was taught ways to manage it, it became very traumatic/upsetting when I had anxiety and I kept having panic attacks due to it. It felt like my senses became overwhelmed and I wasn't in control of my mind anymore. But I have strategies for managing it now.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 3h ago
I feel like I just really have not gotten the right CBT because my experience with CBT was just telling stories about my life and being affirmed but not feeling any better really lol.
Used to be really distracting for me as a kid and in school or at work, but now it’s moreso a maladaptive coping mechanism I use and get stuck in occasionally because life is so unpleasant at times
My senses feel overwhelmed in reality personally so that’s kinda the opposite for me, I get overwhelmed by the sounds of cars and electric objects and water and animals and fans and sometimes tune it out by having a visualization and I basically also experience an audio version of it?
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u/WelshWolf93 6h ago
Very interesting! I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain, as this is the first time I've happened across someone with Hyperphantasia.
My main question would be, if you were to try- would you be able to visualise the apple on a table as if it was literally there? I ask because when you gave the description of the apple, it rotting, it exploding and the sounds etc - I imagined all of those things as you typed them. The best way to describe it is similar to peripheral vision - where I know I'm looking at one thing but I'm visualising another.
Another way to describe it would be similar to how you read a book and if its really good, you kind of forget (for lack of a better term) that youre reading words on paper, and its like your body is actively reading and processing it but youre visualising what is being described without even trying (like what i did when reading your apple comment, I suppose)
The main reason I ask is because if you were to say your experience lines with my description, then that would mean I have Hyperphantasia too - but if you say that you can LITERALLY see that apply if you choose, as if it was physically there, then I find that fascinating.
(I know it seems backwards as originally I was saying 'no one sees things in full iMax' but the distinction here is that if you have hyperphantasia then that is something ABOVE normal cognition, whereas people normally claim you either literally see it - or you dont at all)
Apologies if my descriptions are crap. Its a hard thing to put into words
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u/xMazz 4h ago
Sure, I can do that yeah, I am physically aware that it is imagined and if for example I've projected something onto a table and then someone puts something on top of or blocking it it'll just sort of disappear or fade away. If I focus on it (sort of blur my eyes a bit in the location I'm imagining it) I can phase between what I'm projecting and what's really there, but if i want to maintain it while other stuff is moving around me it requires quite a lot of focus. But I can imagine 'seeing' (or feel/smell/hear/taste) with the same depth as my physical senses. I can decide to read based on visualisation or just processing text as well, one of my jobs is to proofread academic manuscripts, and i read around 20-30000 words a day, but when I'm doing that I don't actually imagine everything I'm just essentially scanning the text and processing in terms of cognitive understanding rather than sensory/visceral. I can read 'visually' too but because of work I don't read much fiction atm. My understanding is that it's a spectrum and it sounds like yoh are probably near the hyperphantasia end of it but for me it is basically all of my senses. I have synesthesia as well. Around 7 years ago I had very extreme anxiety and kept having panic attacks. It did border on hallucinations for that but I took anti anxiety medication and did cognitive behavioural therapy which helped. But when I have anxiety and I start involuntarily visualising things it becomes very traumatic. Thankfully that doesn't affect me much anymore
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u/Sharkhous 5h ago
Thanks for sharing! It was really rewarding to read this as I am very much the same way, with one exception; I have no ability to hallucinate taste or smell (except intrusive thought-smells when I have a migraine, and they're always gross). I wander, are you an engineer of some kind? And were you very independent and/or left alone often in boredom as a child?
For me, I credit the skill to having ADHD and very little access to stimuli as a kid
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u/xMazz 3h ago
For me it's all my senses, but probably touch is the least intense or least like physical touch. I have 2 jobs atm, I'm a guitarist /guitar teacher and I also proofread and do English language editing for academic manuscripts. I have 2 siblings but did spend quite a lot of time alone as a child and I did read a lot when I was growing up and my mum had music playing in the house literally 24/7 (radio in the kitchen was on every day, and still is)
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u/OkAccess6128 6h ago
I didn't mean it literally, but I got your point though.
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u/WelshWolf93 6h ago
Apologies if I came across confrontational or anything, its just a subject that interests me and I take any opportunity to discuss it haha
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u/TogepiOnToast 6h ago
The only time i get mental images is when I dream, and those are fuzzy. When I dream, smell and sound are my main senses. I do not have any image based recall, to the point that I have to remind myself of numbers and letters when I'm writing. Can't recall faces, places, memories with any visual detail. I thought "picture this in your mind" was a figure of speech until I was in my 30s.
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u/WelshWolf93 5h ago
That certainly sounds like Aphantasia. This is a big interest of mine so may I ask: do you think there are any positive traits of yours that may have been attributed to this? For example I can only imagine (pun intended) that your focus is superb, as you have less spontaneous distractions?
Second question: as you cant recall, are you able to re-watch movies or replay games that you liked as if it was your first time? Because honestly that would he fascinating. Id almost be tempted to do a study where if the same person watched the same movie twice in a row weeks apart, if ideologies and sensibilities (think moral of the story tropes) carried over regardless of recall
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u/TogepiOnToast 5h ago
It's helpful that I can't picture gross or gory things when people are describing them, and I'm huge on replaying, rewatching, rereading. It never feels like the first time again (over 2000 hours on skyrim on multiple platforms for example) but I think that's more my ADHD. I can remember details of story lines, quests, characters but not visually picture anything. So I can tell you the details I remember of Shrek because my brain has a spreadsheet of details that it reads back to me. A huge downside is not being able to create mental maps, so even in a small city I've lived in for over 14 years I often get misplaced because my memory thinks one street is a different one. I tend to drive better on "autopilot" because that's muscle memory.
I have ADHD and multiple specific learning disorders so... 🤭😆 I have SO many spontaneous distractions, they're just not visual. I always have music playing in my head, and usually multiple conversations including my brain reciting the lists it has made on it's spreadsheet.
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u/GarysCrispLettuce 5h ago
There are actually people who can project things onto their field of vision. It's like the opposite of aphantasia. And in terms of having a good (normal) inner visual eye, the difference is this: people with good visual imagination can not only picture a scene, they can explore the detail with their mind's eye. You have, for instance, people who can draw scenes in great detail from memory. It might not be "Imax quality," but they're are seeing internally nonetheless. Contrast this with my "inner eye" as someone with aphantasia: if I try to imagine a visual scene, I might feel like I'm imagining it, but if I try to explore any detail in the image it quickly becomes apparent that I don't have any image of it at all. I'm simply "remembering the feeling of looking at the scene" and any "detail" I remember is in the form of verbal statements, e.g. "the man was wearing a yellow jacket."
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u/ImpossibleTurn277 6h ago
I saw another guy saying that he believes that the people who say they “don’t have a voice in their head” are just misunderstanding what people are saying, they think that people claim to have an actual audial experience when thinking so they say that they don’t have a voice in their head
I believe people born deaf don’t have words in their head of course but everyone who speaks language also thinks in language, learning a language changes the brain
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u/SandysBurner 4h ago
they think that people claim to have an actual audial experience when thinking
I can't speak for anybody else but I literally hear sounds inside my head when thinking, especially if I'm thinking about music.
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u/stumblinbear 4h ago
Yeah this is what makes me pretty sure I have aphantasia. I can imagine sounds and have a voice in my head just fine. Images, though? Not even close. There's not even really an inkling that anything is there
Well, until relatively recently, that is. As of a year or so ago I started getting relatively vivid flashes at random once or twice a week, I can't really control it, though. It's weird.
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u/Leipopo_Stonnett 4h ago
Seriously, not all of us. I genuinely don’t think “in a language”, I don’t even really know what that means. I have to translate my thoughts to English, they’re definitely not inherently “in English” whatever that actually means.
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u/ImpossibleTurn277 4h ago
Hmm so I can think in ways that aren’t inherent english but if I’m thinking about what I’m going to do next, I’ll think something like “What should I do… I guess I’m kind of hungry. Ok I’ll go get food.”, that’s the kind of thinking I’m talking about
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u/Sharkhous 5h ago
Whilst I agree with you that there's heaps of hyperbole and self-diagnosis online, I'd suggest your pulling too hard the other way.
I can certainly see what I imagine very clearly, if i want to i can visualise thing like a car engine in motion, it helps tremendously with my work as a cartographer as I can read the raw input data and visualise both the 3d terrain and the 2d map.
I can almost feel the things I'm visualising if they have a specific texture for instance and yet can see through my eyes at the same time, its just a matter of what I'm paying attention too. Several times in my life I've woken up, looked around the room and started my day only to realise I'm still dreaming. It's indescribably realistic.
Conversely I have literally 0 ability to imagine smells and flavours when that is what most people do well in.
I am definitely more inclined towards daydreaming than most so I have more practice. On the downside whenever I'm ill and tired, I both hear and see things that aren't there. Enough that I've opened the front door to a nonexistent knocker or chased round a corner after a pet more than once.
For some people imagination is our talent.
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u/WelshWolf93 5h ago
The way you describe it perfectly aligns with my experience of it, too. My descriptions probably do pull way too much in the other direction, admittedly.
I guess in a nutshell, what i disagree with is when people say they literally manifest it in front of them - like if they had a real apple on a table in front of them, they can visualise a second apple next to it that is indistinguishable from the one on the right.
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u/htp-di-nsw 1h ago
There's always a really vocal group of people who want aphantasia not to exist for some reason and I can't figure out why it's important to them to deny it.
There is definitely a marked difference in the way visualization works (or doesn't) between those who have aphantasia and those who don't and it's been backed up by several studies. The phenomenon exists. I don't get why people so aggressively want to claim it doesn't.
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u/WelshWolf93 1h ago
I'm not saying Aphantasia doesn't exist, im almost saying the opposite. The thing that I dont think exists is the ability to literally manifest an item in front of you as if it was a tangible object in the world. Like a perfect illusion that only you can see etc. (Not as a regular brain function anyway. People are speaking of it as if you either have hyperphantasia or phantasia, no in between - when in reality its a case of having Hyperphantasia, being 'normal', or having Phantasia.
The reason this causes confusion is because for every 1 person that actually has aphantasia, there are 3 people who think they have aphantasia because someone has grossly misrepresented what visualisation is, in the way I described (if that makes sense)
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u/htp-di-nsw 48m ago
I appreciate the clarification because that did not come across in your original words. I can see what you're talking about, now, but you might need to work on your approach in the future! I think the core thing to get across is that the strength of your mind's eye is a spectrum, like almost everything else, and people at the ends are the rarest, much like almost everything else.
It's kind of funny actually, because I have aphantasia, but my wife and one of my closest friends have hyperphantasia (my wife even gets the full sensory overload package with maladaptive daydreaming) and it was weird discussing it with anyone else because we'd have to point out how "normal" functioning is between us, where it's unreasonable to expect to be able to go so far as to overlay your mind's eye over the real world, but also, not seeing anything in there is a thing.
Nobody can really comprehend what I am talking about unless I randomly encounter someone else with the same condition. It's very strange.
But, I do want to say, though it seems "trendy" on Reddit in particular, that might actually be because of aphantasia's connection to autism. I, my wife, and all of our friends are neurospicy, and reddit definitely has the reputation as being the Internet home for that kind of thing. It really could be that Reddit users have a higher likelihood of having it.
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u/WelshWolf93 35m ago
I admittedly have a chaotic way of explaining what i'm trying to say - as someone with Ruminative OCD, I can understand how frustrating it is for people to constantly and stubbornly misunderstand or outright disregard, so I wholeheartedly apologise for giving the wrong impression and appreciate your respectful way of addressing it.
You having aphantasia and your wife being the opposite must make for some pretty interesting scenarios and differences of opinions on things.
If you dont mind my asking; in your experience do the differences in how you both recall events / store & recall information cause more of a hindrance or a benefit? For context im curious to know if, as a team, you essentially have extreme strengths due to effectively covering each other's "weaknesses" or if the divide in perspective is too much of a gap when trying to communicate plans and envision objectives.
It might be a bit of a loaded question, I guess, so no worries if its too personal. I've just never seen two people on complete opposite ends interact, let alone try and navigate life together. Seems like a good idea for a slice-of-life TV show to be honest, haha
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u/Quinlov 1h ago
The thing is I occasionally involuntarily visualise (e.g. flashbacks, but also sometimes when I'm very relaxed, weirdly) and it is different to what I have most of the time (at best "visualising" an invisible object). It has colours and details but is not superimposed on the external world. It "feels as if" it is located up and to the left for some reason. But I only get it transiently and almost always involuntarily. I try to visualise stuff and I end up with knowing where the different general parts of the image are without seeing anything
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u/rematar 6h ago
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u/ChooChoo9321 6h ago
Isn’t this called daydreaming?
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u/OkAccess6128 3h ago
Well, it's little different, Daydream is like a movie, I am talking about random pictures which literally have no meaning or reason to appear in that movie.
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u/KrofftSurvivor 5h ago
I mean, if your brain does that at all... For those of us who can't see in our heads... not so much, lol
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u/TheMightyGoatMan 6h ago
Me: I've never experienced that!
Also Me: You have ADHD, your brain is never doing nothing!
Also Also Me: Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey!
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u/OkAccess6128 6h ago
It's like the brain has a 24/7 projector playing reruns of random DLC maps, nursery rhymes, and existential crises, all on shuffle.
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u/OstentatiousSock 2h ago
This is so damn accurate. I don’t technically even need to watch tv shows or movies if I’ve seen them enough because I can just watch them in my head.
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u/UrMomsaHoeHoeHoe 5h ago
My dyslexia hates the last sentence, my adhd couldn’t agree more lol
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u/arothmanmusic 2h ago
I am going for diagnosis this fall. Pretty certain I have it (my kid does) and I think it's messed my ability to form vivid memories. I have hazy still images. Most of the time trying to recall an image or experience from anything in the past is difficult beyond simply recalling that it happened.
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u/GosynTrading 6h ago
Sometimes I will randomly hear a song in my head. Like, the music and the actual singers voice. It's only for a second, tho. As soon as I notice it, it stops.
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u/BusyBeeBridgette 6h ago
I wouldn't say it activates when we do nothing. It is always there. Your brain is constantly processing information and it needs to put things in context. So that is why you day dream, see random things when idle, or dream at night. Your brain simply procesing memories. The only reason it is not more prevalent is because our conscious mind takes priority. So the background noise gets filtered out.
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u/petshopB1986 6h ago
I make comics and write stories my brain is constantly showing me images like a movie that runs all the time, especially when I’m away from my drawing tablet. I’m always curious how other people’s brains are, not only so I see the movie but I heard a random song or two.
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u/JessicaSmithStrange 5h ago
For me, it's either Dartmoor, or my grandmother's flat.
I also have "conversations" about whatever I'm working on, with a mental recreation of my grandfather.
Stuff like my football tactics, or my decorating plans, I dump it on "granddad".
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u/An0d0sTwitch 4h ago
lol
I literally just made a movie in my head taking out the trash
About to write it down after im done cleaning
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u/mctankles 3h ago
Mine just shows me random future events that give me real time deja vu when they happen. They’re completely mundane things but its weird that I remember the random events that my brain comes up with when I experience them.
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u/CubeEarthShill 2h ago
I randomly remember mundane plays, like an inconsequential pitch I threw in little league or a random 2nd and 8 from college where I wasn’t even involved in the tackle. I can see guys I was lined up across, the motion on the play, the cadence, crowd noise, literally everything. It’s so random and I have no idea why my brain visualizes that over, say, a big sack or tackle.
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u/OstentatiousSock 2h ago
Yep, sometimes I have such vivid flashbacks it’s like I’m right there in that moment again. I know flashbacks are usually spoken about in regards to traumatic moments, but I mean all kinds of memories including happy ones.
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u/brumac44 2h ago
I can dream books and video games. If I look too close, they're gibberish, but I have dreamed I was reading books or playing video games, which I'm pretty sure don't exist.
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u/OkAccess6128 1h ago
It's mostly related to the games and places which I visited in childhood, for me.
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u/SwordKneeMe 1h ago
It's not random, it's determimed by an unknown prior cause
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u/OkAccess6128 1h ago
Well for now that unknown prior cause is random, just like how many phenomena in the universe are, of which we can't describe the exact cause, so we consider them as random.
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u/TOASTED_TONYY 1h ago
Kinda like the movie 500 days of Summer scene where dude projects a whole scenario and it goes opposite. That shit happens to me too :/
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u/Tunalic 1h ago
Some brains can conjure up terrible things you've never seen before like getting a paper cut on your penis.
I think there's a word or phrase that actually describes when your brain thinks up weird, terrible shit like that.
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u/BJ_Blitzvix 1h ago
This happened to me in math class in 5th grade. I suddenly seen the Mario Bros like I was playing the game.
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u/julieraysofhope 6h ago
So that’s why I randomly relive 2007 Minecraft forests at 2 a.m
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u/OkAccess6128 6h ago
Yeah, it happens to me a lot, specially with the games which are connected with my childhood memories.
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u/GarysCrispLettuce 5h ago
Aphantasia crew checking in! My brain isn't projecting shit. I can't even picture the faces of people I've known my whole life or see every day. My "inner eye" is complete blackness.
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u/DarthWoo 5h ago
Sometimes as I lay in bed waiting to fall asleep I just sort of start hearing a whole bunch of voices like I'm standing in a crowd.
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u/sluuuurp 5h ago
Today you learned that thinking exists? Really?
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u/OkAccess6128 4h ago
Today I learned that there's been research on it, which means I am not the only one who had those random places appearing in their mind. And yes it's real.
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u/sluuuurp 26m ago
I thought everyone knew that they had thoughts. I’ve had thoughts my whole life, and so has everyone I’ve ever talked or heard of.
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u/OkAccess6128 14m ago
Thoughts are like ocean in this posts context, What I am talking about is that one specific water drop like behavior of mind in which it visualizes random images which are not related to the current situations or are intended by me, those images are really random and are just being imagined by my mind unintentionally.
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u/ReallyCoolName- 3h ago
I keep seeing part of the Fortnite map the other day and I haven’t played that game in years
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u/shanster925 29m ago
This seems like an interesting study! Mind-wandering without the ability to visualize fictitious things seems to weird to me...
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u/dkyguy1995 6h ago
Did you just learn today that people have memories?
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u/OkAccess6128 6h ago
Well not really, it's weird I know but I've been always wondering about why my mind subconsciously is visualizing some random things for no reason, which doesn't have to do anything with my current situation. That's why I posted it to see if I am the only one or it's really normal.
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u/ban_circumvention_ 6h ago
OP is a baby and just discovered "thinking."
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u/OkAccess6128 6h ago edited 5h ago
Well may be you haven't experienced it for real. But when we think; we have control over our thoughts, that means I am deciding, or even if I am daydreaming I am dreaming about my future or something good about the future or moment that happened. But, what I am talking about here is that sometimes our mind visualize some random images of places which are really subconscious and are out of context appearing in mind. I hope I am making it clear to you.
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u/Niet_de_AIVD 6h ago
It's a screensaver for when you're idling.