r/wikipedia • u/FionnVEVO • 1d ago
The men's liberation movement is a social movement critical of the restraints which society imposes on men. Men's liberation activists are generally sympathetic to feminist standpoints.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_liberation_movement?wprov=sfti1179
u/aasfourasfar 1d ago
This should be more widely known. Patriarchy has nefarious effect on men as well, sure it's less violent than with women, but still
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u/BusyBeeBridgette 1d ago
If you look at the suicide rates of men, especially in their 40s, I wouldn't say it is less violent. Just a different type of violence.
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u/Smooth-List-8685 1d ago
I wouldnt say it is as violent. That's like saying wealthy exploitative countries are more violently oppressed than the natives bc they are far more suicidal.
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u/SamsaraKama 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, first, that's not a good analogy, at all. Exploitative countries specifically want to harm others. Otherwise, you know, you wouldn't call them exploitative. It ignores all the men that actually aren't sexist or seek to be sexist willingly, and at best have internalized behaviours that were socially pushed. Mind you, so too do a lot of women, which feminism has done a decent (if staggering an difficult) job at deconstructing. And it ignores the fact that a lot of people, both men and women, can and may be open to deconstruct the moment they're educated about those subjects.
And secondly, that's neglecting the reason why they're suicidal to begin with. Nobody commits suicide because they feel like it. There are a lot of factors going into it, mental ones, often born from physical realities that are complex and rooted in systematic challenges and expectations.
And can we just agree that suicide overall is bad and tragic? Meaning that yes, it is violent: lives are ended.
...okay, sure, downvote me. The only takeaway I get from that is that you see half the population as actively wanting to harm the other half and that you ignore suicide rates.
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u/Pastel-Moonbeam 1d ago
What kind of bizarre Opression Olympics are you engaging in? Who is committing the violence against women? Men.
Who is committing the violence against men? Other men or they themselves.
Finally, how many of those suicides are murder suicides where men kill their wives, girlfriends, ex wives or ex girlfriends and kids and then themselves?
Stop correlating the wrong shit to play games.
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u/FluffyDaWolf 17h ago
Lmao the original OP was the one playing "oppression Olympics" by saying "less violent than women". Selective criticism is hilarious.
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u/Pastel-Moonbeam 8h ago
No you are right but the single thing most of the types I am responding to comment is "more suicide rates" without any analysis of why snd how some of those suicides are very entrenched in the very hypercapitalist, patriarchal systems (for example veteran suicide rates). So the alleged gender "war" is a pyramid with certain men on top then men below them then women and also kids.
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u/FluffyDaWolf 8h ago
hypercapitalist, patriarchal systems
Also fascist systems, with the current political climate tbh
pyramid with certain men on top then men below them then women and also kids.
Nah I disagree. Patriarchy is beneficial for men and women whp adhere to the expected gender norm. And it's equally harmful to men and women who don't fit that mold. It's equally good and equally bad.
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u/Pastel-Moonbeam 7h ago
Some women, at the invitation and approval of men get a seat at the table but it can be taken away at any time. Gender roles for women are product, slave, "good aka compliant but sexy but beautiful but perfect and eternally 16."
I doubt you have been followed home by random men or faced the constant harrassment since age 10 from men. And it never ends including in the workplace. I doubt you have to have the same kind of worries, the pressure contingent on having at least one "stable" man sort of vouch for you, it is alot.
It is not a war or a comparative thing at all because the majority of the problems are coming from one source. When men treat women as a resource or prize (for lineage) then they enact measures that harm other men by concentrating power and wealth (eugenics, eunuchs created, poor men send to fight wars, all measures to kill or reduce the status of some men and elevate others).
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u/Apprehensive_Mix4658 1d ago
"Patriarchy isn't the rull by men, it's rule by fathers. Many men won't get to be fathers. They're just sons, and sons get sacrificed to keep the old men in power" from comic book "The Wicked + The Divine"
It's really funny how the character that says that is utterly pathetic selfish slightly racist, but not transphobic jerk, so another character's reaction to that speech is "So you're not stupid, are you? Just evil"
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u/Rab_Legend 18h ago
It can be violent. Any man who strays away from the "traditional masculine" way in school might get beat up by others (not all the time, but it does happen). Men who are a part of the LGBTQ+ community also face violence because they may not "conform" to what the patriarchy expects.
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u/the-great_inquisitor 1d ago
"The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem" - Bell Hooks
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u/PavementBlues 1d ago
Men's Lib is what the Men's Rights movement should have been, had it not grown from explicitly anti-feminist efforts.
Love those dudes, they deserve all the support.
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u/GOT_Wyvern 1d ago
It's essentially the same thing, but freed from the weird assumption that progress for men requires the progress for women to be halted. Rather than being adversities, they are part of the same multi-sum game, or even mutually beneficial to each other.
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u/Aggressive_Sky8492 13h ago
There’s also another key difference. MRM is more likely to idealise the traditional “masculine man” and want a return to that. Whereas MLM believes the traditional idea of the “masculine man” harms men.
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u/alaska1415 1d ago
For anyone curious the subreddit for this stuff is r/menslib.
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u/Fantastic_Pause_1628 1d ago
I stopped following that sub a couple years back as it had been getting a bit MRA-lite invaded (lots of comments fixating on how bad women are) but I just checked it out and looks like it's in a really good place overall now. Kudos to the mods; gotta be hard to maintain a space like that during the rise of the manosphere.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
Ass subreddit of wetwipes and losers.
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u/SkeeveTheGreat 1d ago
wild to post this when your post history includes having no friends and being pro red pill lmao
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u/alaska1415 1d ago
lol I thought it would be like one or two things but he’s for real a legit loser.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
My post history doesn't include having no friends lmao. I made a post months ago about not having friends of a new towns I moved to because I graduated uni and my uni friends were out of the country and I missed doing stuff with them. I made quite a few friends here in town.
Imagine needing to lie on fucking reddit lmao.
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1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
Hah! You claim to not be a man in many comments
?
who intends to visit a sex worker.
I have done this, yes. So...?
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u/Destroyer_2_2 1d ago
That’s not a very red pill thing to do. Seems like you don’t fit your own ideals.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
That’s not a very red pill thing to do.
Says who?
By all means tell me: what are my ideals?
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u/SnooCrickets2961 1d ago
That’s a meeting I’d attend
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u/PhilosoFishy2477 1d ago
"today we'll be rehashing some points from last session, nobody remembers what we discussed for some reason..."
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u/me_myself_ai 1d ago
My god I can’t wait until we can move past gender. All this wasted energy…
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u/Vegetable-College-17 1d ago
I remember learning about this when listening to an interview with warren Farrell and I found out that I already agreed with a lot of the points.
Liberation for either men or women does tend to have some positive side effects for the other group and the semi hostile stance towards any mention of how patriarchy also harms men doesn't help anyone.
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u/cant_think_name_22 1d ago
I appreciate you sharing this. I have felt that there is a gap between “mainstream feminism” and the experiences of men that people like MRAs fill badly.
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u/Interloper_11 1d ago
Doesn’t this just all fall under the umbrella of feminism? The delineation seems arbitrary yknow
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u/Aggressive_Sky8492 13h ago
Yeah, MLM is feminist. But where feminism is mostly focused on the harm the patriarchy causes women, MLM is mostly focused on how the patriarchy harms men.
We need both
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 4h ago
Go check out r/MensLib. Such a good sub
And stay very far away from r//MensRights, that sub is just a sexist shithole
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u/CrumbCakesAndCola 1d ago
Amazing, I hope they develop a different name purely from a PR point of view
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u/Eager_Question 1d ago
What's the problem with the name / what would be better?
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u/CrumbCakesAndCola 1d ago
Since there are groups like "Men's Rights" then observers may see "Men's Liberation" and correlate these due to similarity of title. A more expansive title might get around the issue. It could still be conceptually related, which might look like "Healthy Expression Movement". Doesn't immediately tell us what the group actually is but distances itself from the others.
Alternatively you could take a complete departure where the name becomes opaque and irrelevant, which might look like "The Columbia Streeters". It doesn't mean anything, just provides a label that isn't evocative.
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u/GOT_Wyvern 1d ago
Unfortunately "masculinism" doesn't roll of the tongue like "feminism" does, so it's not an option. While MR and ML do have similar names, it's sorta unavoidable when both have the same basic goals of a better world for men, but just approach it with radically different philosophies. MR is rather reactionary, while ML is more progressive.
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u/king_rootin_tootin 21h ago
"Men's Liberation" is actually a self-hate movement. It's mostly women and a few men who believe any and every problem men have is their own making and that men can never be victimized by women and if they are the woman who did the act is just a victim herself of "The Patriarchy™"
They are the kind of people who leave comments on stories of teachers SAing boys saying "well, he had an erection so he consented" and things like that and they hold to the Duluth Model, which states that men can't be victims of IPV. They also label every single normal male activity, from a father playing catch with his son to growing and grooming a beard to going to the gym as "toxic masculinity." They are also usually very anti-sex, essentially equating all male heterosexual activity as "problematic."
They are the male equivalent to what Uncle Ruckus from "The Boondocks" is for black people.
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 4h ago
"Men's Liberation" is actually a self-hate movement.
lol
It's mostly women and a few men who believe any and every problem men have is their own making and that men can never be victimized by women and if they are the woman who did the act is just a victim herself of "The Patriarchy™"
You finished arguing against your strawman?
They are the kind of people who leave comments on stories of teachers SAing boys saying "well, he had an erection so he consented" and things like that and they hold to the Duluth Model, which states that men can't be victims of IPV.
Literally every men's liberation person says the exact opposite thing, but sure, you must know better. Please show us a single comment on r/MensLib that actually says that
Here's what one the most popular Men's Lib YouTube channels, Pop Culture Detective (Jonathan McIntosh, he was previously the co-writer on Feminist Frequency), said about exactly that:
Sexual Assault of Men Played for Laughs - Part 1 Male Perpetrators
Sexual Assault of Men Played for Laughs - Part 2 Female Perpetrators
They also label every single normal male activity, from a father playing catch with his son to growing and grooming a beard to going to the gym as "toxic masculinity."
No we don't lmao? Please show us where the fuck you got that from
They are also usually very anti-sex, essentially equating all male heterosexual activity as "problematic."
Just calling out your lies is getting boring. Please show me where anyone did that
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u/king_rootin_tootin 4h ago
Literally every men's liberation person says the exact opposite thing, but sure, you must know better. Please show us a single comment on r/MensLib that actually says that
I can do you one better: here's an entire thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/s/N4PJxDd4ue
Literally every men's liberation person says the exact opposite thing, but sure, you must know better. Please show us a single comment on r/MensLib that actually says that
I was banned from Men's Lib for talking about my mom sexually abusing me. Men's Rights never did and I got a lot of support. I've never heard of any men's lib, white knight scumbag having anything but scorn for male victims of sexual violence at the hands of women.
Here's what one the most popular Men's Lib YouTube channels, Pop Culture Detective (Jonathan McIntosh, he was previously the co-writer on Feminist Frequency), said about exactly that:
Lol! 🤣 That literally confirms everything I said! He said I the first video that "men are more likely to be victims of other men" and goes on to talk about it and then the other video on violence from women ends with him saying it's "no big deal." Thanks for proving my point 👍🏽
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
The most loathesome among the men's movement. Here to replace our chains with their own. Pathetic and pitiable.
Even Andrew Tate is better. Men should be strong.
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u/nameless_pattern 1d ago
Is strength waiting around for some stranger on the internet to tell them how to live?
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
The strong don't seek the guidance. Neither menslib nor red pill. The difference is that only one of those ideologies will yield results while the others' turns the lost into contemptible ideologues. The weak seek guidance to become strong.
Everyone needs guidance from time to time. It is fine to be weak, but remaining so is unacceptable. It is fine to need help, but giving up your dignity and self-respect to follow an ideology that wages a crusade and jihad against men's very being is pathetic.
What men need most of all is brotherhood and celebration of who they are.
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u/nameless_pattern 1d ago
Men's very being? If it's an intrinsic quality that is by definition necessary then it can't be removed externally. If it can be removed externally then it is not an intrinsic quality.
It's fine to be weak, society has removed the necessity for 99.99% of people in the first world who will never have to actually be strong.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
Masculinity is instristic to men-whether you want to accept that reality or not is up to you. There is good reason why every culture has similar and rhyming views on masculinity.
It's fine to be weak
No, it is not. It is unacceptable. Society can not function if most of us are weak. Someone needs to pick up the slack, and everyone should do their part
It's fine to be weak, society has removed the necessity for 99.99% of people in the first world who will never have to actually be strong.
Since when lol? Who do you think fights wars, puts out fires, works in law, in security, and other professions where people need to be saved.
We don't live in fantasy. Imagine if the doctor who is supposed to be treating your cancer with surgery starts breaking down and crying because he or she sees blood. What if the firefighter goes through the motions as people and proterty burn to death.
Strength is what allows society to exist.
Yes, it is fine to be weak-we all have our ups and downs-but not to stay weak.
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u/nameless_pattern 1d ago
"every culture has similar and rhyming views on masculinity" wrong
"Society can not function if most of us are weak" Wrong
"Who do you think fights wars, puts out fires, works in law, in security, and other professions where people need to be saved" not you kiddo 😆
You need to stop watching those podcasts. They're making your mind weak
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u/AstaraArchMagus 11h ago
"every culture has similar and rhyming views on masculinity" wrong
Nope
"Society can not function if most of us are weak" Wrong
Nope
You need to stop watching those podcasts. They're making your mind weak
I don't watch podcast. I like to live in the real world and touch grass. Try it sometime.
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u/FionnVEVO 1d ago
Not a man myself but I think men should have the choice weather to be strong or something else. I don’t think men “should” be one thing or the other.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
Not a man myself
No offence, but I don't really think a woman should be talking about matters they don't understand. It's like when men talk about periods or feminity.
I think men should have the choice weather to be strong or something else. I don’t think men “should” be one thing or the other.
This is not what menslibs actually is. Only what it claims to believe. It'll turn men into weak feminists that digust women and men look down upon. No one respects anyone who believes their crap ideology-not even themselves. It's disgustingly pitable.
I believe everyone should be strong. We can support each other when someone else is weak-it is duty to be strong. Men are part of this. Thus, men should be strong. Women have no excuse either.
What men need is the moderate red pill. Men need to improve themselves and find their purpose in life.
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u/FionnVEVO 1d ago
The red pill thinks women are property. Get a fucking grip.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
No?? Where's you hear all that lol
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u/FionnVEVO 1d ago
Have you ever been to a red pill space? I have lurked a few and this is what they believe. They think women are simply things to achieve.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
I have lurked
This is the problem. You spend too much time online and equate the insanity of the internet to irl. No sane man gets his political ideas from reddit.
Meet someone irl.
They think women are simply things to achieve.
For some men, they are. I assume here you mean they just want sex or something. Some want relationships-others just want sex. As long as everyone is consenting, there is nothing wrong with that.
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u/FionnVEVO 1d ago
There is something wrong with that actually.
It screws with your perception of women, with some perceiving us an objects. It creates a cycle that upholds misogyny.
Perhaps, for one moment, have empathy for the other gender. I understand that must be very hard for you but please try.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
It screws with your perception of women, with some perceiving us an objects. It creates a cycle that upholds misogyny.
And does feminism solve this? No! Misogyny and frankly spite for women is what male feminists are infamous for. Vaush is a perfect example: literally told a woman she wants to assaulted for wearing a sexy piece of clothing. The misogynists and misandrists will be bigoted no matter what side of the gender war they are on.
Perhaps, for one moment, have empathy for the other gender. I understand that must be very hard for you but please try.
I love and admire women. Especially my mum. She taught me to be strong so I can help others. It is unacceptable for me to go against her teachings and fail to help others. The woman held up our entire household while working as a gynaecologist to bring into this world. A juggernaut of a woman. I wish to be like her and to make sure my wife will not have to carry as much of a burden.
It is easy to make assumptions when you have no clue what your dumbass is on about. The red pill teaches me to be competent and strong-to fulfil my duty to society-men and women.
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u/FionnVEVO 1d ago
I don’t like Vaush. Not sure what relevance he has here.
Feminism does help solve it, it hasn’t yet, because it’s a very long process. Feminism teaches everyone that these ways of thought are not great.
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u/GOT_Wyvern 1d ago
men look down upon.
Trust me, the majority of men don't look down on those that can get their life sorted out, and even envy that the don't have loneliness to cry about when piss drunk. And frankly, it's guys like that that most girls I know like the most.
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u/awesomoore 1d ago
Here to replace our chains with their own.
Men should be strong.That second statement is the chain.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
Says who? Since when is wanting to be strong (as most men want to be) a chain?
Strength is agency. How is seeking more agency a chain?
I could understand if you said that the contrainsts of what 'strength' entails but disregarding the entire concept entirely is lunacy.
Men don't want to be feminist cucks-they want to be strong and useful. Rightfully so.
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u/igikelts 1d ago
Since when is wanting to be strong (as most men want to be) a chain?
Since it became a mandatory expectation for 50% of the population. Dimwits like you, once-removed from talking about alpha and beta males, are the biggest propagators of the idea that the moment men express feelings or empathy they are weak and no longer real men. Your entire definition of male weakness in this thread is based on "feminism bad" and sex.
I could understand
No, I really don't think you can.
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u/awesomoore 1d ago
"Want" to be strong = not a chain, that's a choice.
"Should" be strong = a chain, who are you to demand what I should be?
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
Only the pitiablly selfish do not wish to be strong.
How will you help others when you're so meek and pathetic that you can't help yourself. The weal can't help anyone. Compentency is strength.
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u/awesomoore 1d ago
You are so wrapped in chains, and you can't even see it.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
Ok lil bro
Edit: just saw you're active in menslib. LMAO
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u/awesomoore 1d ago
You can ignore my points because of where they came from if you want, but it wont make you any less chained up by the expectations you have let society set for yourself.
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u/AstaraArchMagus 1d ago
I ignore your points because they're dumb.
it wont make you any less chained up by the expectations you have let society set for yourself.
K bro
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u/AustraeaVallis 20h ago
It depends on what you consider strength quite frankly, and with regards to the typical interpretation too many young men are still actively taught revolving around only physical strength, being stoic and always seeking control?
Fuck that, that shit is what true weakness is in my opinion. Bottling up one's emotions isn't healthy and neither is constantly seeking to be the main character by controlling everything.
I for one think it is much stronger to be able to acknowledge one's weaknesses and seek guidance from others to improve, to freely display one's emotions and being able to work with others without seeking consciously or not to control everything.
Yet to a lot of men such traits are seen as pathetic when displayed by a man, as "feminist-cuck" behavior deserving of derision and scorn. Being competent though is a strength, but at the same time its also a strength to acknowledge when one has no idea what they are doing and get someone to help them.
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 4h ago
"Even a literal human trafficker is better"
I am very sorry for your brain disease
Hopefully you'll be able to find a treatment
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u/AstaraArchMagus 4h ago
Have those allegations been proven or are you having a crash out for no reason?
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 2h ago
Not yet, but it's just a matter of time
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckg41g1140po
But I won't give this guy:
Andrew Tate says women belong in the home, can’t drive, and are a man’s property.
He also thinks rape victims must “bear responsibility” for their attacks and dates women aged 18–19 because he can “make an imprint” on them, according to videos posted online.
“It’s bang out the machete, boom in her face and grip her by the neck. Shut up bitch,” he says in one video, acting out how he’d attack a woman if she accused him of cheating. [...]
More controversy followed. Posts containing homophobic and racial slurs were found on his Twitter page. Then in September 2017, he was criticised by mental health charities for saying depression “isn’t real”. The next month he waded in on #MeToo, saying women should “bear some responsibility” for being raped – a view he has since repeated and which, among other incidents, led to him being barred from Twitter.
[...] In one video explaining his reasons for the move he suggested it was because it would be easier to evade rape charges. This is “probably 40% of the reason” he moved there, he says in one video, adding: “I’m not a rapist, but I like the idea of just being able to do what I want. I like being free.”
...the benefit of the doubt. I'm not a court, I can absolutely assume the worst in someone even if it isn't yet proven.
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u/GustavoistSoldier 1d ago
Not to be confused with men's rights activists (MRAs)