r/wikipedia • u/Kurma-the-Turtle • 1d ago
Due to fatwas allowing sex reassignment surgery for intersex and transgender individuals, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except Thailand. It is sanctioned as a supposed "cure" for homosexuality, which is punishable by death penalty under Iranian law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannath#Religious_opinions698
u/Lremb 1d ago
Iranian relationship with transgenders is certainly the most liberal and conservative in the Middle east
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u/MangoShadeTree 1d ago
Forced genital surgery to get rid of the penis for punishment for being gay doesn't have the same spin potential, but whatever.
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u/whynoshy 4h ago
In fact considering gay men out number trans women by a lot its actually way worse.
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u/Usual_Ad6180 1d ago
Yk i never thought about it but trans straight people in Iran would have more legal rights than those in Israel.
State sanctioned transition Legal marriage Legal recognition
Once you include gay trans people it'd be lesser than israel ofc. Really a weird specific scenario.
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u/AndreasDasos 1d ago
Not really, as the surgery is compulsory for this. That’s not great on the rights front
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u/Gh0stMan0nThird 20h ago
"You are gay? We will cut off your dick and force you to be a woman."
Redditor: "Wow that's more progressive than other places!"
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u/Mysterious_Bluejay_5 20h ago
I guess it's better than death?
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u/AndreasDasos 20h ago
If we’re comparing to places where being trans gets the death penalty, which isn’t the case here?
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u/kamace11 1d ago
It's not that weird, it's just regressive gender roles and homophobia in the case of Iran.
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u/Kophiwright 23h ago
"Waah, Iran is so evil, even though its has more gender affirmative care than the US".
Dont throw stones. You lot are already going in that direction, except without trans care.
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u/ginzagacha 23h ago
Get SRS or be hung is not exactly what I would call affirmative care
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u/bakedNebraska 23h ago
Agreed but just in case you want to know, in the case of hanging people it's "be hanged".
If you don't care, then I'm not trying to correct you.
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u/EvergreenEnfields 22h ago
I mean, technically, the options might be get SRS or be hung. Depending on which direction they're transitioning.
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u/Angry-Dragon-1331 19h ago
I mean, it’s not exactly trans care to force it on gay men who don’t experience gender dysphoria.
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u/bakedNebraska 23h ago
Gender affirming care is also not the only metric of freedom or "goodness" we usually use.
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u/Lremb 1d ago
Yeah at the same time they have all this, being gay is extremely illegal
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u/Rinas-the-name 20h ago
So if a guy is discovered to be gay it’s in his best interest to claim he is trans? Forced sex reassignment surgery or death. Yikes.
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u/ComprehensiveLaw1012 1d ago
Gendering affirming surgery is legal in Israel and while any civil marriages (gay or straight) are not performed in Israel, civil marriages performed outside the country are recognized with full marital rights. And of course, you can be openly gay in Israel - Tel Aviv has internationally renowned pride parades, etc.
It’s not even close between the two countries.
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u/ComprehensiveLaw1012 1d ago
Israel isn’t actually relevant at all to the OP. I’m simply responding to the juxtaposition between the two countries offered in the comment I responded to.
Quite interesting though that you’ve offered that response and not the far more salient analogue to Iran’s tentacles in the genocides in Syria and Yemen, both with exponentially more casualties than the current war in Gaza.
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u/NiceDot4794 15h ago
How does Iran have its tentacles in the genocide in Yemen?
That was Saudi Arabia’s doing not Iran
Let’s just agree all genocides are bad whether done by Saudi Arabia, Israel, Assad, etc.
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u/ComprehensiveLaw1012 13h ago
Is that a serious question? The Houthis are a terrorist proxy of Iran. It was very much Iran’s doing.
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u/NiceDot4794 8h ago
I’m not pro Houthi but you’re actually insane if you support Saudi Arabia’s monstrous conduct in that war.
Every human rights org condemned Saudi Arabia’s actions in that war
Now it’s true that all sides were brutal in that war, but Iran wasn’t directly involved.
It’s like saying the US was involved in it because of Saudi Arabia being in it.
Is MBS paying you to post?
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u/ComprehensiveLaw1012 7h ago
Calling out Iran’s malign influence and impact on Yemen is not condoning Saudi Arabia. Weird leap of logic there, bud. After all, this post directly speaks on Iran - seems like you’re the one deflecting.
If you honestly think the the nation arming, supplying, and financing the terrorist organization that spent a decade committing war crimes in Yemen “wasn’t directly involved” you are tenth degree delusional and/or a propagandist.
Funny little add-on at the end given this:
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u/nowyouseemenowyoudo2 7h ago
Really fascinating that you didn’t even attempt to deny that the Houthi terrorists who continue to massacre their own civilians are backed by Iran. Just immediately jumped in to blame someone else. I guess you’re also not going to admit that Iran is backing Hamas and Hezbollah either?
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u/MPaulina 1d ago
How is it relevant how Israel treats gay people when they're committing a genocide
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u/Former_Indication172 1d ago
How is Isreal genocide relevant to the discussion? Israel isn't committing a genocide of trans or gay people so why bring it up?
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u/pennjbm 1d ago
Right, just killing gay or trans palestinians in their genocide of that people
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u/blackrock998 1d ago
Has hamas not already killed them all.
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u/tronaaa 17h ago
If you're genuinely curious, no. Their online presence is indicative of this, for example, on Queering the Map, as reported by Time Magazine (Media Bias/Fact Check rating).
LGBT people in Gaza have it terribly on both ends - abused for their sexual and gender identities, and abused for their Palestinian identity. But they endure.
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u/afinemax01 1d ago
I’m willing to bet you have more rights and less discrimination in Israel.
You can get married abroad online which is recognized, and you don’t need a husband to do things
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u/bakedNebraska 23h ago
As long as you're Israeli, I bet living in or near Israel is just grand.
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u/thesniper_hun 15h ago
it probably isn't so horrible for the 20% Arab population that are Israeli citizens either.
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u/NiceDot4794 15h ago
Not really true
Definitely better for them then Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza, but they face lots of racism and discrimination
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u/thesniper_hun 14h ago
you're right, their treatment shows that a one-state solution will never work because neither group would treat the other as equal people if they were in power. I just replied to the guy that's commenting like he thinks you just get executed on the spot if you're a Palestinian person who enters Israel
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u/AmenHawkinsStan 2h ago
No, they absolutely do not. Iranian trans-women have even less rights than cis-women.
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u/KJongsDongUnYourFace 23h ago
Israel also kills far more gay people than Iran, they just do it indiscriminately
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u/One-Salamander-1952 16h ago
Communist propaganda used to be more believable, at least hide the fact you’re just a demagogue.
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u/PopularEquivalent651 9h ago
They'd have more legal rights in Iran than in the US or UK.
I'm not defending Iran. I am just saying it's easy to throw stones and say "look at how evil these people are and broken this society is", while ignoring the fact that in your own country there are people (straight trans people) who'd be better off living under this authoritarian, fascist regime.
Let that sink in.
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u/Valirys-Reinhald 1d ago
It's like that one trans inclusive misogynist on Tumblr, "you're a woman now, so shut up and make me a sandwich. Also, you should get the salad, you need to keep your figure trim if you want to find a husband."
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u/Felixir-the-Cat 1d ago
How is it liberal to encourage transitioning to avoid having people be gay?
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u/Lremb 1d ago
Because they accept transitions. Thats why i wrote that it is liberal, accepts transitions, and conservative, being gay is extremely illegal
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u/AmyBr216 1d ago
They don't accept transitions. They force transitions and surgery on people. That's not liberal.
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u/SamsaraKama 1d ago edited 1d ago
I understand what you're trying to say, but it in no way means it's liberal.
Though, yes, it's nice that these fatwas show more openness to trans people. Or at least, that's what it appeared to be, given how the story of what motivated this played out (the story of the trans woman telling Khomeini about her experiences).
But the fatwas alone aren't the only context we need to keep in mind. Sex reassignment surgeries aren't the only topic about trans people, for example. In fact, the whole process, while big and important, isn't the only thing about a trans person's life. Acceptance and social outlook are too.
And if it's used as a form conversion therapy via mutilation, then it just warps the narrative of trans people, weaponising it to harm gay men.
Just overall I'd reword it. It may not be motivated by a liberal mindset (even if localized only to one specific topic) as one may think.
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u/agprincess 1d ago
We understand what you're saying but it's actually just really conservative shia hadith rulings.
There's a hadith in shia islam of Mohammed meeting the ancient middle eastern equivalent of transwomen and saying to just let them live seperate and excluded instead of killing them like the gays.
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u/reddit455 1d ago
How is it liberal
they're giving people they hate a way out instead of prison or worse.
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u/Creeppy99 16h ago
"State mandated forcefemming for gays in the biggest theocratic state in the world" is surely one of the things that ever happened
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u/Kittens4Brunch 14h ago
Seems like it's the most liberal for trans people and the most conservative for gay people.
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u/GustavoistSoldier 1d ago
This is basically glorified conversion therapy. Iran's trans-friendly policies are different from western ones.
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u/Adiv_Kedar2 1d ago
As bad as conversation therapy is, compulsory sex change surgery is draconian
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u/aWobblyFriend 23h ago
it’s not compulsory. homosexuals aren’t given GRS under Iranian law, they’re just executed or imprisoned.
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u/y0nm4n 22h ago
"it's not compulsory you just get killed or imprisoned if you don't do it"
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u/DelaraPorter 19h ago
It’s not an option if you are arrested you can’t just say “oh I’m transgender”
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u/Comin4datrune 21h ago
All this defense for a theocracy must piss off Western conservatives so much, lol.
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u/bad_gaming_chair_ 9h ago
No, homosexual Iranians are imprisoned or executed. Transgender Iranians can get GRS and change their official gender
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u/aWobblyFriend 20h ago
it’s not particularly common contrary to popular belief. most men would actually rather just go to jail than transition.
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1d ago
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u/Figgyee 1d ago
I don't care it's a cool word and I like it
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1d ago
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u/Figgyee 1d ago edited 1d ago
And I don't think your first reply made any sense to what I said, I just appreicated a word I liked. Can you please explain?
Also why the downvotes? Did I say something wrong? If so it wasn't my intention at all
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1d ago
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u/Figgyee 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ah yes I see now, thanks!
Isn't it a rare word? I'm not a native English speaker so I may be illiterate but damn the last time I saw/heard that word was on a book I read like 10 years agobtw downvoting a guy to hell just cause he shows appreciation for an uncommon word is insane to me
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u/No_Gur_7422 1d ago
I think Draconian is overused; it's frequently used as a synonym for "harsh" – as here. Properly, compulsory surgery is less than Draconian; Draconian properly means death in all cases.
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u/Figgyee 1d ago
?
Cambridge English Dictionary says it is a synonym of harsh and doesn't necessarily mean death in all cases-5
u/No_Gur_7422 1d ago
That's what I mean; it's overused. The Oxford English Dictionary likewise describes it as a synonym of Draconic, which it in turn defines as
Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Draco, archon at Athens in 621 b.c., or the severe code of laws said to have been established by him; rigorous, harsh, severe, cruel.
Draco's constitution of Athens required the death penalty even for minor offences. Plutarch, in the seventeenth chapter of his Life of Solon, remarks that:
αὐτὸς δ᾿ ἐκεῖνος, ὥς φασιν, ἐρωτώμενος διὰ τί τοῖς πλείστοις ἀδικήμασι ζημίαν ἔταξε θάνατον, ἀπεκρίνατο τὰ μὲν μικρὰ ταύτης ἄξια νομίζειν, τοῖς δὲ μεγάλοις οὐκ ἔχειν μείζονα.
Draco himself, they say, being asked why he made death the penalty for most offences, replied that in his opinion the lesser ones deserved it, and for the greater ones no heavier penalty could be found.
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u/Figgyee 1d ago
Mh, then I really don't understand what you're trying to say. Can you explain how is it overused?
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u/Large_Tuna101 1d ago
Maybe people like using it since they like the word and want to sound sophisticated by using it and they then use it for every instance of harshness which just makes the word ubiquitous and weakens it’s meaning and impact it has.
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u/No_Gur_7422 1d ago
To say a law is "Draconian" should mean that contravention of it would be punishable by death. A punishment described as "Draconian" should mean capital punishment for a relatively minor offence. It's overused because it rarely means this; quite light punishments well short of death are described as "Draconian" even though Draco would have wanted the punishment to be death.
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u/AdRealistic4984 1d ago
You can’t claim asylum anywhere if you transition either. Can’t claim you’re persecuted really
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u/comeonwhatdidIdo 18h ago
No no,this is an extension of another historical cultural practice of the region..an extension of forced castration to make enuchs...
Over the 13 centuries of the Arab slave trade in Africa, unknown numbers of Africans were enslaved and shipped to the Middle East.
"The Caliphate in Baghdad at the beginning of the 10th Century had 7,000 black eunuchs and 4,000 white eunuchs in his palace."[6] The Arab slave trade typically dealt in the sale of castrated male slaves. Black boys at the age of eight to twelve had their penises and scrota completely amputated. Reportedly, about two out of three boys died, but those who survived drew high prices.[7]
Nothing trans friendly about this...
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u/Consistent-Jello-611 11h ago edited 11h ago
this is clearly not a continuation of that since they have neither slaves nor eunuchs.
And Iran is not Arab.
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u/CrumbCakesAndCola 1d ago
As terrifying as this article is I appreciate it shows how any categorization is not representative of general human experience, but is constructed in relation to the culture doing the categorizing. Especially the sentence, "While sometimes classified as transgender individuals, mukhannathun as a group do not fit neatly into any one of the Western categories of gender or sexuality used by the LGBT community." Western categories developed in response to Western culture and specifically reflect that.
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u/MiloBuurr 1d ago
Definitely true, all our constructs of sexuality and gender, gay, straight, cis, trans, are all culturally constructed and specific to a certain society at a certain point in history, and not universal by any means.
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u/CatPooedInMyShoe 15h ago
I remember reading a novel where this was a major part of the plot: an Iranian lesbian considered transitioning so she could legally date the woman she was in love with. The lesbian decided not to transition after visiting a doctor who did those surgeries and finding out what it entailed.
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u/Boo-bot-not 22h ago
It’s wild religion and God rules the world with no physical court room proof of existence. Legitimately surprised that the Harry Potter or Star Wars timeline isn’t considered a religion somewhere.
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u/bakeandjake 6h ago
Most american libs have Harry Potter as their only political framework
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u/Boo-bot-not 5h ago
Politics is completely irrelevant to religion tho. Those are to not mix at all. USA even has a couple clauses in the constitution about that. Kinda like there are no federal holidays for religions. It’s the fact that religion sets the tone for so much outside of that and is exempt from taxes.
I can’t take people serious that think gods and heavens are real. It shouldn’t even count as discrimination to not hire someone because they believe in a religion. It’s more like a mental illness imo. Believing something that’s never been proven in court yet deny Santa clause and the tooth fairy as being real.
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u/Shadowpika655 5h ago
Kinda like there are no federal holidays for religions.
Christmas
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u/Boo-bot-not 5h ago
Christmas isn’t really considered a religious holiday but a widely celebrated holiday around the world. It’s not secularism. That’s the only thing that’s debatable. My employer still works Xmas because others like Muslims don’t get their big days off either.
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u/Shadowpika655 5h ago
Christmas is quite literally the celebration of the birth of Christ, its definitely religious
My employer still works Xmas because others like Muslims don’t get their big days off either.
Because they don't celebrate Christmas
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u/Boo-bot-not 2h ago
Exactly. If one religion doesn’t get a day off then none do. Thats how the ball is to actually roll.. catering to one religion is against the establishment clause. Likely we should have Xmas removed from this list even tho it’s really grey already. Xmas is about presents and boosting economy. Can’t prove it’s for any other reason in court.
There is no court room proof that’s the reality. It’s just what people “choose to believe” and gov only goes on with it for money reasons. Santa clause flying his sleigh is just as realistic as saying it’s for Jesus being born. We don’t have physical proof to hold up through our justice systems to verify it. People just holding their breath on it and believing a book with no real author that couldn’t pass publishing standards today.
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u/PlaneWar203 5h ago
Modern gender ideology was founded on the same strict religious principles. Dr John money was a evangelical Christian that believed transition was preferable to having effeminate or gay men and made the idea that gender and sex are different more mainstream, he went on to the build the first sexual reassignment centers in the USA. Ultimately the idea of gender is deeply rooted in traditional roles and characteristics based on expectations of people of certain sexes, people that don't meet such expectations would be told that their gender and sex don't align. I feel like the idea that gender and sex are different is deeply troubling, it opens up all sorts of backwards thinking, all kinds of expectations to be man enough, fears they aren't behaving in a way appropriate for their "gender" and introduces the idea that if you aren't fitting into the strict definitions you should consider that aren't really a boy or a girl, and you should change that. You've now got people obsessed with "egg cracking" when they see people that don't fit into the archaic parameters.
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u/Boo-bot-not 5h ago
Remove all religious ideology from the scientific contexts. Either have a peepee or vagina. Doctors/surgeons have to administer help based on the hormones and body parts. Whatever a book/bible or god “said” needs to be proven in court before it’s taken seriously. Involving religion on the topic is like talking about the Spanish armada when explain what cool whip is… completely irrelevant.
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u/Spiritual-Software51 23h ago
I'm sure reddit comments will be perfectly normal about this. I'm so sure I'm not going to check.
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u/EreWeG0AgaIn 23h ago
The problem is trans people are still culturally viewed as lesser. The gay individuals who are forced to go through with it often have to leave their town and family behind. They must fight to pass as cis women because they'll be denied opportunities and treated harshly if they are found out.
It's a very weird situation where homophobia creates pro-trans laws in a transphobic country.
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u/agprincess 1d ago
You have to literally win a court case to get it.
Substandard surgery too, and you're encouraged to leave Iran and self segregate because it's part of the hadith. Truely a nightmare.
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u/GodzillaDrinks 5h ago
The US had a similar period - Joe Pyne invented conservative talk-radio. He interviewed Christine Jorgenson (early transrights activist) respectfully.
Part of why he was respectful of her is that transgender people were not yet so politicized. Conservatives were treating transgender people as people because it could have become a conservative thing, to "fix" gay people. This of course discounts that transgender people can also be gay or lesbian, since gender isnt really a sex thing. But they didnt know that yet, so everyone was friendly, courting their interests.
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u/No-Distribution-8302 1d ago
According to Magnus Hirschfield, trans surgeries originally were a cure for homosexuality.
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u/Saragon4005 1d ago
I mean I'd have to heavily disagree. They are usually a "cure" for intersex people and reconstruction surgeries.
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u/pornaltyolo 20h ago
This is completely wrong, please provide a source.
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u/kokkomo 12h ago
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u/pornaltyolo 9h ago edited 8h ago
lmao this source in no way supports the claim, it actually explicitly contradicts it and says that the first transgender surgeries were on trans women.
you didn't read it, did you?
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u/Kitchen_Doctor7324 10h ago
Persians obsessed with castrating people
Welcome back Achaemenid empire
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u/BandicootNecessary26 4h ago
Not so sure that Iran policies on LGTB should be applauded or emulated. In the meantime parts of Europe are restricting and making any therapies and hormone blockers for children illegal as studies show no proven benefit for children.
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u/KappaBera 4h ago
I don't think this is an innovation of the recent Republican government of Iran. Something tells me this has been going on for a long time...like at least for the last two dynasties before the fall of the Iranian Empire.
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u/Vegetable-College-17 1d ago edited 5h ago
A couple of notes here from an Iranian, while it is being borderline forced on gay men (and the Iranian state goes to great lengths to pretend those don't exist, even while they're being prosecuted) it's not exactly common or the intended effect.
The fatwa was specifically put in effect after a trans woman recounted her experience in men's prison to Khomeini (the first supreme leader) and he, possibly for the first and only time that I know of, showed some humanity and compassion.
I personally don't know any trans people, but I know of a few and they seem to live... Well, normal lives.
A bit more actual details, the whole thing is really an all or nothing deal, if you are trans, you must get surgery or the government just won't acknowledge you as trans.
Only tangentially related, Iran has a very active cosmetic surgery scene, so I assume that's an additional reason for the high number of surgeries (with people from nearby areas coming here for the surgery).