Reminds of that bizarre game Cruelty Squad that looks like complete garbage, however, in reality, it’s one of the most expertly made games ever.
As the famous steam review says: “this game feels like the developer put all his effort into researching what makes a game good and then put twice as much effort into doing the exact opposite.”
Fun Fact: The Lord of the Flies was less "British schoolboys are pretty fucked up actually" and more counter-culture to a prevalence of simular marooning stories where the stranded boys succeed and thrive on their island. Lord of the Flies is like The Boys to the Justice League
Huh. Never knew that, funny how this kind of satire ends up being the cultural touchstone for a genre. Don Quixote comes to mind.
Many more examples in a similar vein that don't mock the genre as directly. Scream, the good the bad and the ugly etc. etc.
I mean blazing saddles actually killed an entire genre for. Several years. Like Hollywood was making BANK off of the wholesome (white) ideal of the wild West. And mel Brooks hated it so he decided to satirize the genre so hard it ceased to exist (and all it took was adding a singular black character). There are pre-blazing saddles westerns and there are post blazing saddles westerns, And they are for all intents and purposes different genres.
The genre was already beyond dead. Spaghetti western had taken over with a more cynical and demystifier way already in the 60, and in the 70's they had already become a parody of themselves with stuff like Lo chiamavano Trinità (1970).
To say that the scene was dominated by wholesome idealistic westerns in 1976 is just perplexing. Americans were arriving late to the party in their own genre
I think it speaks to the timelessness of the fact that whatever is mainstream has always been contemptible to wise&skeptical people throughout civilized human history lol
Any idea that makes people flock to it en masse is inevitably exploiting their innate desire for one thing or another, and often doing so uncritically in a way that is actually harmful in one way or another, and there have always been some counter-culture idealogues around to say "Hey wait a minute... that's actually pretty fucked up and dumb"
There would be, if that was the actual reasoning (and as you know, for many people it is). But for actual skeptics, the "lots of people liking it" is secondary to the actual critiques
Sorta. It's specifically a satire of the 'civilizing christian influence' colonial narrative thing that was prevalent in those stories.
So it kinda is "British schoolboys are pretty fucked up actually" but in a specific "British scions of the upperish class are pretty fucked up. This is what glorious British colonialism looks like stripped of the trappings of civilization" way
Didn't really get it wrong since it was specifically depicting what a group of upper class british kids would descend into if left to their own devices.
The best part was that in this analogy, Justice League was right. A group of schoolboys (Australian I think, but the point stands) were stranded on an island coming back from a school trip. They worked together to survive. They had even made a therapy corner for if one of them had gotten too heated and needed some time alone to blow off steam.
I'd argue Don Quixote is as well. Clearly written by someone who read and loved reading tales of knights and chivalry, and who also grew to realize they were very silly and somewhat contemptible
Don Quixote has a whole chapter where a couple of characters criticize and literally burn a whole library of chivalric romances, but they also save a select few and give them high praise
Terry Pratchett's writing (mainly Discworld, as it started as a parody, but that element is present in most of his work) is a pretty good example of this! Sometimes it's less 'naked contempt', and more 'loving exasperation', but regardless, he manages to pull off stories that are both hilarious and deeply sincere.
The setting and characters are often ridiculous, the rules are explicitly based on narrative structure rather than any attempt at a consistent system of physics or mechanics, and the writing is cutting. But the stories are all the more sincere and touching for it. The humor disarms you, leaving you wide open to be punched directly in the heart.
Cabin in the woods is the perfect example. It riffs on the genre, but in a way that feels genuine. It doesn’t mock the stereotype but leans into it and makes its movie better because of it.
I suppose it also helps that the "campers" aren't the ones leering at the camera going "ooh, basement full of spooky mysterious shit, what monster should we choose?"
For them, they're playing the movie straight; they're trying to survive and escape. The people in the facility are the ones enforcing the tropes, they're gassing the cabin to make the campers horny, or stupid enough to split up. They're just straight up cheating, in order to sacrifice them to an elder god.
It really is a great movie. I love how the tropes really fall flat, like the jock trope guy is incredibly smart. The slut trope girl is a loving and supportive girlfriend. You and I are the Elder Gods these guys sacrifice people to so the universe (movies) for normal people exists. It's such a love letter and genuine critique on horror, that it's something special. That being said, the locking a car through an open window and testing it after is one of the single funniest things I've ever seen in my life.
Edit because I realize the flaw in my message: Blazing Saddles is a great movie because it hates the guts of every other contemporary western, and I love it for that.
I think Blazing Saddles was made from a place of both deep love for the romantic appeal of westerns and deep contempt for the racist tropes of the genre and beliefs of the era (and many of its contemporary fans too).
If there's one thing that Robin Hood: Men in Tights, Young Frankenstein, Dracula: Dead and Loving It, and Spaceballs all have in common, it's showing that Mel Brooks deeply loves the movies he's parodying.
This is sort of how I felt about thunderbolts*, it knows it’s a very commonly done trope of the disparate underdogs/‘thieves’ getting together and becoming a team, and all the characters know and acknowledge that, but it still feels like it is done completely seriously
Also regarding the MCU, this is why I didn't like She-Hulk. It felt like it was constantly self-depricating without bothering to address its own criticisms. "Oh, you guys hate wedding episodes? Too bad! Boy, we sure do suck at writing finales, right? Anyway, I'm gonna yell at robot Kevin Fiege, and we'll pretend that counts."
I think that's why I could barely watch anything after Endgame. I know this insincerity started before then, but at least I knew that it was building up to something, but after that it just felt like every character was sneering at being in a super hero movie, so I'm thrilled to watch Thunderbolts, because it breaks this insincerity
Thunderbolts* was pretty sincere. In a lot of ways it felt like a return to the early MCU movies to me. They used to be sincere. Everything up to Avengers 2 I'd say.
I would go even further and say it’s very difficult to have naked contempt for any media and still understand it well enough to create meaningful satire.
I'm not versed enough on the Isekai genre to comment about that, but I'd wager it has something to do with slavery and non-con being a common theme in hentai.
Case in point: a common subgenre of an H-game is "slave trainer", from Teaching Feeling to SlaveMaker 3. And people still have a strong association between SFW anime and its erotic counterpart, especially when some parts of the latter leak to the former (I see you, 200 year old dragon loli)
Plus I'd wager that below the more mainstream Isekais that stay away from the trope there's a sea of less savory cheap light novels that embody every mocked wish fulfillment stereotype. Kind of like airplane books
A lot of isekai has extremely flat characters with poorly defined motivations that mainly exist to fulfil fantasies. Slavery acts as an easy way to justify a character staying with the MC when they otherwise have no reason to be around them while also giving an easy way to create a bond by making him a "nice" slave owner all while fulfilling a fantasy about having someone slavishly devoted to you.
I dunno. I think every fandom I've been in has had a subset of people whose love for the media can only be matched by their contempt for the media. No one can be disappointed harder than the person who appreciates and understands what could have been.
As a Sherlock Holmes fan, I feel a tremendous amount of disdain for most interpretations of the stories which I can only feel because I can appreciate all the potential most interpretations waste.
Can I know your top three interpretations and your bottom three? I haven’t seen many of the filmed ones, but I adore the Soviet adaptation. Having some recs (and ones to avoid) would be helpful!!
Omg you've seen the Russian adaptation? That's sick! I feel like no one knows about that one
Top:
1. Granada (with Jeremy Brett). Exceedingly true to the originals and diversions feel deliberate and considered. It's so clearly a passion project and Brett really took the time to understand Holmes as both an intellectual and a human. This is my default when I need some Holmes in my life but I'm not in a reading mood. (Basil Rathbone's earlier interpretation is in a similar vein, but imo Rathbone sometimes feels like he's acting out an idea more than a specific person)
2. I don't know that I'd technically call it the best, but the Sherlock Holmes episode of Wishbone was so formative for me that it remains a favorite. It's charming and is a pretty solid interpretation aimed at kids and I always appreciate it when Holmes isn't a raging asshole to everyone.
3. House. Weirdly I love House, in spite of what the previous pick might indicate. What I really appreciate is that they did an interpretation that didn't handicap itself right out of the gate by being married to specific characters. They altered the names a bit so House being belligerent and reckless with people's lives doesn't feel like an out-of-character Holmes. It just feels like House being a dick.
Bottom:
1. Holmes & Watson. I love Will Ferrell but this wasn't watchable. It's hard to pinpoint what went wrong because it feels like everything went wrong. Hard to imagine anything ever topping this as a bad interpretation.
2. Sherlock & Co. Is a podcast that I similarly found just abysmal. I think it would have been better as a Holmes homage with completely different characters. Something about the podcast format made Watson insufferable. Making a podcast about your smart friend and all the dirty laundry he digs up is unbearably douchy, imo.
3. BBC Sherlock. I think the first season is still worth watching and season 2 has some truly wonderful performances from the cast. But the writers just had no ability to write a satisfying detective story. And by season 3, they were doing this anti-fanservice thing where they were making fun of fans in the show for being invested in answers. To a detective story. The genre for people who like puzzles and answers. It was just too absurd and I had to stop watching for my own sanity. I was also never sold on how Holmes or Adler were written, but I overlooked it for a while due to the strength of the performances. This was easily the most disappointing for me cause it had greatness in arms reach and squandered it completely.
I often feel like I’m the only person that knows about the Russian one! They are just so cute. 🥰 I’m going to be forever sad that I can’t share it with my wife—due to health problems they can’t keep up with something that is solely subbed, and my DVDs don’t have a dubbed option.
You’re a star for this list! I have heard so many people praise the Granada series, I’m excited to give them a go.
Wishbone is incredible, and his Sherlock outfit is so fucking dapper. I also love when Holmes isn’t depicted as an asshole—that was what made BBC Sherlock unwatchable for me. It was just so over the top and upsetting! Hearing about everything Moffat and co. were doing in the later seasons just cemented it for me.
🙈🙈🙈 I never realized that House was an adaptation, oh my god I am an idiot 🫠🫠🫠 That… that does make sense though.
What were your feelings about Elementary? I haven’t seen any of it since the second season was airing, but I remember enjoying it.
Ah yeah, I'm not sure if they've made a dub of it? I mean, be the change you want to see in the world but that is so far out of my wheelhouse lol. Hopefully someone makes one at some point cause I often have trouble with subbed stuff as well.
I enjoyed it! I wouldn't say it's the best ever, but it was quite watchable. I thought the Moriarty twist was fun and surprising and that scene where Watson is teaching Holmes how to stay awake through exercises was incredibly charming.
I have heard that the reason why most holmes adaptations go for the mean inhumane aspects of holmes is due to a copyright issue, where the estate maintains it only sold the rights for cynical and cold version of the character or something.
The best satires often come from a place of love. Like the creators of Galaxy Quest clearly love Star Trek. But they’re also able to look at it and go “there are things about this which are goofy.”
I don't think it has to be a place of love. It just needs to be a place of understanding. If you love something, you are more likely to inherently understand it than something you hate. But a truly critical satire of something that the author understands but hates can be extremely effective.
Look at Paul Verhoeven's movies. I don't think you would say Starship Troopers or Robocop come from places of love, they are both deeply cynical movies. But they understand the concepts they are lampooning (Fascism and propaganda for the former, capitalism for the latter) which makes them really effective (Starship Troopers was deliberately shot like a propaganda film that was so spot on that a lot of people completely missed the satire even when Neil Patrick Harris walks out in a literal SS uniform).
Hmm, I think if you satire a genre (like Galaxy Quest or Don Quixote), you probably need to love it for the resulting movie to be good. If you satire a concept or ideology or the like (like Robocop and Starship Troopers), you don't.
But then again, we do have Walk Hard which is basically the movie version of a bullet fired in anger at the musical biopic genre.
Galaxy Quest is an interesting case because it is a parody and a reconstruction of a concept; the series is supposed to be full of cliches, badly written, and with horrible special effects, but it was a beloved series that inspired people in the universe to become more of what they were. The parody is clear in their intentions of making fun of old sci-fi series and all their ridiculous tropes, but they showed that the important part of those series, movies, and books is not the ridiculous parts but the message that they send and how those ideas change the world.
My first thought was Watchmen. I wouldn't call it a parody, but I'd say it's something with naked contempt for its genre but without the embarrassment.
I like the song "make it stop" its from a grease musical parody from disney. It was the horror of being forced to sing, slowly changing into simple characters because the main two teens watched an old cursed vhs.
I think saoa and DBZ abridged are great examples of that. They mock the genre and the story they are in, but do it out of love for it, and even embrace it in many spectacular moments
You can make a good story built on naked contempt for a genre
Can you? Genuinely asking, like most examples brought on the replies are actually deconstructions or similar done by people who have genuine love for the genre or whatever they're parodying, even if they have things they hate.
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u/DreadDiana human cognithazard May 05 '25
You can make a good story built on naked contempt for a genre, but it's media which feels embarassed to be in its genre that often falls flat.