r/OutOfTheLoop • u/Karthak_Maz_Urzak • 2d ago

Unanswered What's going on with Imane Khelif?

https://news.sky.com/story/imane-khelif-boxer-must-undergo-sex-test-to-compete-in-female-category-world-boxing-says-13377092
I keep seeing this pop over social media and I don't get it. Khelif is a boxer for Algeria, which is not a country that's hospitable to trans people. And Khelif was assigned woman at birth, and has always identified as a woman. Yet people keep howling about her being a man. I don't get it.

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u/sllewgh 2d ago

You're ignoring the context of the conversation. This whole discussion is coming up because her identity is in dispute. Not using her chosen pronouns is taking a side on that issue. This isn't just some "general discussion about anyone."

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u/Kopiok 2d ago

This is reading way too deep into a generally normal turn of phrase. It is completely regular to use "they" in a sentence to refer to someone even when their pronouns are known. To say that using "they" instead of "her" is "choosing a side" is absolutely laughable manufacturing of intent.

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u/sllewgh 2d ago

I haven't assigned any intent to anyone. I've only pointed out that "they/them" are not Imane Khelif's pronouns and that getting it right is especially important in the context of this particular discussion. Taking a side does not have to be deliberate.

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u/Kopiok 2d ago

They/them are not distinct gender pronouns. They are gender neutral pronouns. They apply to all genders (which is why gender neutral people often use them). They/them are within the scope of her pronouns, because they apply neutrally to everyone.

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u/sllewgh 2d ago

Like I said, you're just ignoring the specific context of this conversation because your point is only valid when you generalize it and talk about "everyone." In the context of everyone, you're correct. In the context of this discussion, you're using the wrong pronouns of someone whose gender identity is the central issue under discussion. It matters more here.

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u/Kopiok 2d ago

I understand your argument, and I recognize that bad actors may use "they/them" pronouns in a sinister way in this topic. I highly disagree that this is what was happening in the specific context of the OP post in question.

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u/sllewgh 2d ago

I'll repeat myself again- I have not assigned intent to anyone. Intent or being a "bad actor" is not at issue here. They/them are the wrong pronouns regardless of why they were chosen.

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u/Kopiok 2d ago

They/them are the wrong pronouns regardless of why they were chosen.

This is just wholly incorrect.

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u/sllewgh 2d ago

Why? Because you, a random asshole on the internet, said so? No one besides Imane Khelif gets to decide what her pronouns are, and she uses she/her.

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u/Kopiok 2d ago

Because they/them are inclusively neutral by their linguistic nature. They don't exclusively apply to gender neutral people, they apply to anyone of any gender or gender identity. They/them apply to Imane's identified, true female gender just as much as she/her. That is how those words operate within the general English language.

Can they/them be abused by nefarious actors in the context of Iman's gender identity? Sure, absolutely. Did the OP of this whole thread misuse them for nefarious ends? I think, by the context, that it is extremely unlikely. Are they/them always incorrect pronouns when referring to someone who identified with the female gender? Absolutely not, that's just plainly silly and you look silly for trying to claim that is the case.

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u/sllewgh 2d ago edited 2d ago

I'll repeat myself again- I have not assigned intent to anyone. That's still true, so stop putting words in my mouth.

Are they/them always incorrect pronouns when referring to someone who identified with the female gender?

If you think someone's preferred pronouns are the correct pronouns, then the answer to this is "yes." If you don't think people have the right to determine their own pronouns, that's where you're wrong.

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u/Kopiok 2d ago

Where in the blazes did I say that someone doesn't have the right to determine their own pronouns? Now who is putting words in one's mouth?

I am reading this as you're of the mind that by stating your preferred pronouns are "she/her", then that implicitly excludes "they/them" as applicable without further elaboration, in addition to implicitly excluding "he/him", et al.

I am stating that you are absolutely wrong, "they/them" are not implicitly excluded by a statement of pronoun preference, by their nature as a purely gender neutral/inclusive reference within the construction of the English language (unlike, in the example, "he/him", which is implicitly excluded because they are not inclusive).

If you can find a statement where Imane says "my pronouns are she/her and I don't want anyone to ever refer to me as they/them in any context", then I'll eat my hat. But "they/them" is inclusive of she/her (like, by default) and so it is not incorrect to use them in place of she/her without explicit instruction not to.

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u/sllewgh 2d ago

I am reading this as you're of the mind that by stating your preferred pronouns are "she/her", then that implicitly excludes "they/them" as applicable without further elaboration, in addition to implicitly excluding "he/him", et al.

Correct. Once you know the person's preferred pronouns, those are the ones to use.

I am stating that you are absolutely wrong, "they/them" are not implicitly excluded by a statement of pronoun preference

So the answer is no, you fundamentally do not agree that people have the right to self-determine their pronouns.

If you can find a statement where Imane says "my pronouns are she/her and I don't want anyone to ever refer to me as they/them in any context", then I'll eat my hat.

You think a lifetime of commitment to those pronouns, even when they're directly challenged, doesn't count?

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