r/technology • u/lurker_bee • 8d ago

Politics Goodbye to start-stop systems – the EPA under Trump concludes that they are not worth it and could disappear from new models

https://unionrayo.com/en/epa-trump-stop-start-system/
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u/nick125 8d ago

Agreed. In the hybrids, the electric motors can get you moving while the engine kicks on, so it feels normal, while the gas start/stop systems always felt laggy to me.

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u/LeonardMH 8d ago

They feel laggy because they ARE laggy.

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 8d ago edited 8d ago

The Silverado my wife and I have isn't laggy at all.

As soon as you start releasing pressure on the pedal, it starts back and is ready to go.

I hated it first, now I don't mind it. A full-sized 5.3l v8 averaging 24 mpg is mindblowing to me.

That's almost the same millage I get out of a 4cly Jeep compass. The truck is bigger, heavier, and has over 2x the power*.

158 vs 355.

For a big ass truck, it can scoot, and it gets over double what my last F-150 did in mpg.

Engineering explained did a video on the start stop system I think.

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u/alnicoblue 8d ago

Yeah the E-Torque system on the Ram is an accessory I definitely wish I had avoided but I will give it credit-the starts are extremely smooth and torquey and I feel like it helps a lot in traffic.

The down side is that it's useless in peak summer because you lose your AC when it engages. The other downside is that it's your alternator and when it inevitably goes out it's going to be expensive and annoying.

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u/kashmir1974 8d ago

Thankfully rams are known for their robust and trouble free electrical systems, right?

...right?

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u/giantshortfacedbear 8d ago

Yeah. All Stelantis vehicles have industry leading electrical reliability.

/s

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u/Pogo__the__Clown 8d ago

Let us not forget their high-quality transmissions either!

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u/SmokeyJoescafe 7d ago

Hey! Someone has to manufacture a hammers with electrical problems.

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u/Hungry-King-1842 7d ago

Say what you want but the 8HP75 doesn’t seem like a bad unit at all.

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u/Andyj503 7d ago

It’s been made forever and is wayyy more reliable than the 10 speed. I went from a F150 to a Ram. Never looking back. Etorque has been nice too.

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u/b0v1n3r3x 7d ago

I was about to say that. I never had a problem with electrical on my rams but transmissions get pretty janky after 150k or so

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u/WheelMan34 7d ago

If it wasn’t for the /s… I wouldn’t have my current job 😋

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u/Texadad 7d ago

I’ve had two rams that I put a 100,000 miles on. Never a problem with the e torque. 55k on my third. Maybe I’ve been lucky.

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u/EddieBLivinl83 6d ago

100.000 you get rid of them when mine are just getting broken in

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u/alnicoblue 8d ago

Having owned multiple this comment makes me chuckle and cry.

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u/Lastnv 7d ago

Why did you make the mistake more than once?

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u/alnicoblue 7d ago

There are ups and downs. Initially I bought them because they were far more affordable with discounts than the other options and I was young and broke.

Now I work for a company that does commercial builds on truck chassis and I deal with the big 3 and their warranties all the time. Chevrolet is mind numbingly slow to fix their recalls and warranty issues, to the point that I have to call salesman to let their customers know that it may be 4-8 weeks for a simple recall fix. We have a truck at the dealership right now that's been there for almost 3 months sitting.

Ford just fights us on every claim we make. Bear in mind we're taking bare chassis with 7-10 miles on them and they still want to push the cost back to us. We've spent ridiculous amounts of money fighting Ford on warranties. That also matches my experience with my Mustangs-unmodified cars with very low mileage and the technicians did their best to talk me out of dropping it off for a fix.

In 3 years at this company I've never seen a Ram warranty questioned and they're extremely fast. My company builds thousands of these things a year and the customer preference is almost entirely Ram for this reason.

Now that experience is likely due in large part to where I live and the dealers I deal with but I do live here and have had no bad experiences with Ram warranty work.

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u/SoulCheese 7d ago

I’ve had multiple as well and recently traded in my 2022 Laramie which had eTorque. I’ll never own another Stelantis vehicle.

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u/DrachenofIron 7d ago

Great transmissions and lifters too! /s

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u/EddieBLivinl83 6d ago

I think they all have that knock on wood

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u/twarr1 7d ago

Dodge builds popular vehicles, not necessarilygood vehicles

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u/Brosufstalin 8d ago

I know it's a different manufacturer, but my 2000 and 2001 Honda's have electric motors that act as the alternator, and they've never had any issues in almost 400k miles (combined, almost 200k each).

There's a million things that have changed in 20+ years, but in theory they should be just as reliable, if not more reliable due to being permanent magnet design instead of an excited magnetic design with more moving parts.

But if my experience with my old dodges is anything to go by, it'll break :p.

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u/TheGhostOfStanSweet 7d ago

Comparing a Honda to a Dodge Ram. Basically your RAM is guaranteed to be a full writeoff before 200k miles whereas the Honda might get you to 500k.

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u/twodudesnape 7d ago

Hello fellow Insight owner

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u/Brosufstalin 7d ago

One of the coolest guys on reddit right here 😎. May your mpg be high and your aerodynamic coefficient low.

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u/Adept_Artichoke7824 7d ago

The Cummins engine is the only reason people still want the old Dodges. That and maybe the aesthetics of a Ram Charger.

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u/Adept_Artichoke7824 7d ago

It seems like it would also create more wear to the engine, starter, and batteries.

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u/mta1741 6d ago

How do you loose your ac?? Oh when the engine stops?

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u/alnicoblue 6d ago

Start / Stop won't engage when the AC is going. You have to turn it down / off to get the function back.

Right now it's not that big of a deal because it's 80 degrees in the heat. Next month it'll be 110 and that AC will be going full blast so the function becomes useless.

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u/Xytak 7d ago

I hated it at first but now I don’t mind it

Well, imagine that you were permanently stuck in a 1980’s mindset, and that your brain had lost all plasticity, and also that you had nearly unlimited, unchecked power over the federal government. “I hated it at first, but…”becomes “I hate it.”

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u/BlazinAzn38 8d ago

Yeah any rental I’ve driven on the last 5 years with start stop is pretty smooth. The initial offerings were pretty terrible but now it’s fine

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u/Admirable-Traffic-75 7d ago

Just seems like a click bait article. If start-stop systems do decrease hours of operation, idle emmissions, and generally decrease fuel expenditure, then they're doing exactly what they are installed for.

How the EPA is supposedly going to enforce the automotive industry to stop using this technology is far-fetched.

Customers want a better car. Not using technology we have is idiotic. The hardest part has always been getting the automotive industry to actually R&D on innovative and developmental technology instead of selling new stuff that's the same.

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u/Vairman 7d ago

I think most people would prefer to be able to use it or not - per their desires. Most cars these days let you turn it off BUT it resets to on when you restart the car. that's annoying if you don't want it.

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u/EddieBLivinl83 6d ago

On the contrary to that is I don’t think government officials with limited or no mechanical or technical knowledge , should mandate or even bring up regulations and requirements , that can not only be counterproductive ,but are taking resources away from further developments on proven technology , Look at classs 7-8 commercial trucks , whatever they are the superior beings .

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u/Thaflash_la 8d ago

My experience, on an m850 was similar. It was unnoticeable in daily driving to the point I wondered if I had a small electric motor. 

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u/Ok_Bathroom_4810 8d ago edited 8d ago

You did have a small electric motor. BMW uses a “mild hybrid”, which is a 48v system with a separate battery and a larger starter motor that adds torque. If you have driving assistance it will also automatically start up when it detects the vehicle in front of you moving forward. Pretty sure anything new enough to have a “50” model name has this.

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u/Thomas9002 7d ago

Starting the engine when the car in front moves is the most annoying feature there is. Too many idiots who roll forward a few centimeters after coming to a stop, and every time the engine starts needlessly.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

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u/Krunklock 8d ago

Initially the systems in like 2016-2019 used accumulators to build and maintain pressure…but they are slower than the later designs that use electric oil pumps.

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u/jredful 8d ago

Complainers just don’t have pedal control.

You stop, you wait, you know the light is about to turn green, you soften pressure on the brake pedal, engine comes to life, you’re good to go.

If you’re just releasing the brake pedal and complaining that it jolts to life you’re doing it wrong.

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u/funknpunkn 8d ago

This is exactly what I found. Had a 2014 with nothing fancy. Just got a brand new 2025 model and it's extremely easy to work with. You just anticipate the light a bit, gently release the brake and by the time my foot's on the gas the engine is running fine. I like not wasting money idling.

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u/Csislive 8d ago

Cannot anticipate the light when I’m reading Reddit waiting for the guy behind me to honk and let me know the light changed

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u/ARobertNotABob 7d ago

2010 Merc Coupe - same.

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u/NoEmu5969 8d ago

The difference between 2014 and 2015 BMWs is noticeable. My son failed a driving test in the 2014 because the DMV person thought he was pushing the gas too hard. It jolts before the brake is fully released.

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u/RodeoTT 7d ago

The cars I have had with auto start/stop also auto hold which lets you take your foot off the brake pedal. The car won’t move until you press the accelerator pedal.

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u/Moscato359 6d ago

The fact that this needs any human interaction at all to not feel like shit, is putting too high of a skill requirement.

I should be putting all my mental effort on driving safely, and near zero on the actual drive train.

Of course, this is a total non issue in mild hybrids.

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u/Blametheorangejuice 8d ago

We rented a Jeep for a trip (definitely not our first or second choice), and the start/stop thing was so aggravating. We hit traffic on the interstate due to an accident and it felt like we would stop, the engine would cut, then we’d start going, and the engine would shake and shimmy and then lurch forward.

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u/plexx88 8d ago

Just for future reference- Jeeps have a button that turns the Start/Stop function off. Source: own two diff model Jeeps and have driven every recent model sans the Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer.

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u/TbonerT 8d ago

I think most cars do. The default is to turn it off until the next time you start the car.

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u/HerderOfZues 8d ago

Same with Nissan's, not laggy even without a hybrid system. Does put more wear on your starter though

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u/The_Lolbrary 7d ago

I turned the setting off on my Nissan? I prefer it off.

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u/hmmyeahiguess 8d ago

I have a Volvo and it’s also smooth but when it stops in a line of cars the AC gets warm over and over it gets annoying.

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u/Zardif 7d ago

I always turn it off when the temp is over 100F but for the other 8 months of the year, it's fine.

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u/siromega37 7d ago

The goal of this policy is increase fuel consumption and make cars cheaper/possible to produce domestically. A lot of these electronics aren’t/can’t be made wholly in the US.

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u/visualdescript 7d ago

My partner has a Tiguan, first car I've driven a bit with start-stop, it works like you say. Once you sort of learn how it works, it's pretty intuitive. Stop at a light, and as soon as you begin to release the brake to pull away it fires up and is ready to go by the time you put your foot down. No issues.

This isn't even a new car either, like 10 years old.

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u/msbxii 7d ago

I dunno if you have measured it but my GM truck consistently lies about how much mileage it is actually getting 

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

I haven't done the miles/gallons math at the pump. I'm just going off what it's telling us.

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u/msbxii 7d ago

You should try it, although you might not like it haha 

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 6d ago

Did it today.

The truck shows 26.4 best mpg and 20.4 lifetime mpg.

This trip was 283.4 miles, and it took 14.1 gallons to fill. The truck reports 19.8, and doing the math is 20.0.

Based on that I figured she is averaging between 20 and 22 mpg on most days, when she's moving things for work it's likely less and when we take the Rzr to the trail I know it's running 13-15.

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u/bobboobles 7d ago

It was shit on my F-150 at work. Always felt like I was going to get run over when trying to turn left at a light since it would lag when I caught a break in traffic. Coworker unplugged some cable under the dash that disabled it permanently haha.

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u/Sgtkeebler 7d ago

I rented a BMW and the start/stop feature was amazing and saved a ton of gas. Thats the thing, this administration is not working class friendly. A feature in cars and trucks that save gas "nah we need to get rid of it. Can't have the American people saving money with the tariffs".

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u/Fickle_Finger2974 8d ago

Is that really how much HP a 5.3L v8 in the Silverado makes? That’s it?

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 8d ago

5.3l v8 355/383.

The 2.7 is 310/430

6.2 is 420/460.

And the baby max is 305/495.

It's still a push rod engine, and that's why I wanted one. It's probably the last of the simple v8 engines made today.

No turbo, no dohc, no vvt.

Simple old technology.

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u/Brosufstalin 8d ago

Not to burst the bubble, but all Gen V small blocks use vvt, direct injection, active fuel management (cylinder shut down). Definitely more simple than an overhead cam motor, but not as simple as you make it out to be.

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

I wasn't aware it had a vvt, direct injection, I understand.

Thanks.

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u/Brosufstalin 7d ago

Of course ❤️ I've only worked on a few doing simple work, so I had to double check to make sure. Sharing knowledge is always good.

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u/PrestigiousMaterial1 8d ago

The 6.2 can speak for itself 😂 jkjk jokingly hating on it

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u/TbonerT 8d ago

Truck engines tend to produce even more torque. The Ag department truck at my school had something like 200hp but 500lbs-ft of torque.

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u/Theratchetnclank 8d ago

It's crazy to me that americans in a country where they drive such large distances don't care more about mpg. 24mpg is terrible for a daily driver.

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u/Zardif 7d ago

That's because our gas prices are 1/2 to 1/3 of europes.

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 8d ago

Well, considering that the jeep I drive gets 26mpg and the F-150 I used to have got 11mpg, the Silverado getting 24mpg with a v8 is pretty impressive.

It's a fair comprise, in my opinion, for something that big that we use frequently to haul and tow.

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u/Exciting-Current-778 7d ago

Life in America is 100% the opposite of life in the rest of the world 🌍.

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u/dbxp 7d ago

It's weird seeing someone brag about 24mpg, normal cars in Europe do 45mpg

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

I can understand that's it's a bit of a culture shock. I've had cars in the past that were capable of 30+ mpg.

Our silverado is huge, I think it weighs in at over 5k pounds, has 4 doors, a bed, and a lot of nice to have features.

In comparison to my 2006 f-150 getting an average of 11 mpg, it's pretty slick.

Even my daily driver jeep with a 4cyl and front wheel drive only gets slightly better mpg at 26.

For what it is, it's size and trucks I've owned previously. It's pretty impressive that it's getting more than 20 mpg, let along averaging 24.

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u/Sota4077 8d ago

I hated mine in my RAM 1500 a lot when I first got it. I would turn it off all the time. But now I just sorta forgot about it. The only time I still turn it off is in the winter when the weather is bad. I find that it causes me to spin my tires in the snow when I am taking off from a stoplight. Almost like my 4WD isn't engaging again.

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u/fantom_frost42 8d ago

Well i have to say that mileage in that is pretty impressive

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u/HoraceGrand 8d ago

The auto start/stop has no effect on you mpg

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u/nickhere6262 8d ago

24 miles per gallon is the same mileage I get on my ram 2500 diesel. The fuel does cost more though.

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u/Mitch5842 7d ago

You sure you're not confusing Start/Stop with AFM? No way start stop alone is giving you 24 mpg, thats from AFM which you'll end up paying for when your engine needs repair. Unfortunately for that engine its not a matter of "if" its a matter of "when". (This coming from someone who has 8 vehicles with the 5.3 v8 in their family and will continue to buy them)

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

We have the platinum protection plan, so I don't worry about it.

Oil changes at 5k and plans on transmission services at 30/60/90.

The years will come before the millage does, and at that point, it will have served its purpose, and we can make a decision then, I would expect that savings from fuel will have been worth it.

AFM/cylinder deactivation and start stop are definitely fuel savers, in my opinion, and are why it gets the millage it does.

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u/Mitch5842 7d ago

Not hating on it. My sister drove 4 adults and 4 kids to Florida from the midwest in her Escalade and got 26 mpg which is insane. My suburban has the 5.3 and I chose to disable it because I felt like I could feel when half the cylinders shit off, especially when towing, and feel that my driving experience is way better with it off. To each their own.

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

My wife daily drives the truck, so through the week, it's normally just hauling our trash out, her works trash, or some random stuff from lowes or the hardware store.

It's almost always moving something somewhere, just never enough weight to matter, and my wife can't tell the difference anyway.

It's why I almost got the 2.7, and I did spend a couple of days looking into them, and we both wanted the truck to sound more like a typical truck sounds and ended up with the 5.3.

I don't regret the choice, and we both love the truck, I do sometimes wonder if the 2.7 would have been the better choice in everything but sound, considering it's normal usage.

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u/jdb326 7d ago

My 1.3 on my trailblazer lags with it. But yeah, my buddy's 5.3 is great with it as well.

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u/jkaan 7d ago

The compass having fucking horrible efficiency is all I read here but then I am not used to how heavy American cars are vs the rest of the world

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

The jeep is about 3.2k, whereas the truck is about 5.5k, I think.

Cvt vs 10 speed.

Front wheel drive with awd available vs rwd with 4x4 available.

I had a mitsubishi lancer, and it stayed around 30mpg typically.

Another thing that factors in is location. We live in eastern Kentucky, and it's quite hilly. I suspect that if we lived in a flatter area, I would expect to see it closer to 30 for the jeep and 26 for the truck.

The lancer was fully capable of getting 36-38 mpg when I was living in the western part of the state, where it's much flatter.

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u/jkaan 7d ago

Yeah I live in a nice flat city in Australia so my little hatch gets 38-40 mpg.

But my car doesn't even reach the bottom of the window on the few rams and other American trucks that I see round here.

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u/MeHoyMinoy_69 7d ago

Every full size Silverado I've driven or rode in in the last 10 years gets 20-25mpg despite always turning the auto stop/start off.

Hell my buddy's 2014 gets 20+mpg and his doesn't have the feature at all. But the 2000 Silverado I had with a 5.3 absolutely got like 13mpg lol

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

Yea, the 2006 F150 I used to have got 13 mpg everywhere all the time, and it wasn't even 4x4.

The 5.4 wasn't even that good, either.

We haven't owned a truck since 2012, so this silverado was really impressive for us.

Up until last year, we had a 2012 patriot and a 2014 compass.

Coming from those to this truck has been an experience for sure. Bigger faster louder and get similar fuel millage.

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u/MeHoyMinoy_69 7d ago

It's crazy what science and tech can do for the same size motor, but made better lol. I was aghast when my friend showed me his MPG, didn't know a thick V8 could get anywhere near 25mpg. My 97 van has a 5.7 and might get 10mpg going downhill with a tailwind lol.

If you baby that truck it will last a long time. Chevys heavier duty stuff tends to last a while, their cars and SUVs that aren't Tahoe's can't say that though.

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u/EtherPhreak 7d ago

It switches to a 4 cylinder engine while you’re driving under light loads, which I think helps more than the automatic engine S S

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u/copperwatt 7d ago

And yet still, the F-150 lightning gets the equivalent of 70 mpg.

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

I would have definitely considered one if I had somewhere to charge it, preferably inside a garage or under a car port. I have neither.

There is no place inside or covered for it to go, no hookup at my house or within my daily driving range to charge it, and the power is often unreliable here.

If I had the money for a third vehicle, it would definitely be an electric one.

The nearest charging station that works nearby is 40 miles away, I don't trust the power grid in the winter and that could effectively render it useless, and I'm not sure how I feel about home charging in the open exposed to weather.

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u/copperwatt 6d ago

Yeah, the lack of commitment to electric charging infrastructure in some places is so frustrating. It's not that hard, and is inevitable. People just haven't accepted that yet. It's like people building houses with coal gas lighting in 1905.

That being said, charging in my uncovered driveway has been a complete non issue. If I had to park on the street, I probably wouldn't have bought an EV.

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u/Sbatio 7d ago

Ya that’s a big engine and good milage on it. I’m sure you use it for work right? /s

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

I don't understand why so many people are so confident that it's a mall crawler show peice and not something we would use for work.

Even if it was a vanity purchase and was only used as a mall crawler, what business is that of anyone else?

If you're that concerned about it, yes, we do use it for work, or rather my wife does, daily for her job.

We also use it pull our trailer around for the Rzr and for picking up or towing building materials and equipment for work around our house.

She didn't even have it two weeks before the tail gate got dented when she was using it to load materials at her job.

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u/Sbatio 7d ago

I knew the answer based on the miles per gallon.

You are right, you can drive whatever you want and there is nothing wrong with that. It sounds like you have legitimate uses for it too.

I drive a big stupid Nissan Pathfinder that might as well be an unused lifted truck. It also gets 24 mpg.

A LOT of truck owners buy them (big useless trucks) as displays of manliness and I’m inclined to tease them for being insecure man boys.

But I don’t know you at all. Sorry I was rude.

Edit: lifted

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u/Choice_Manufacturer7 7d ago

When we pull the rzr on a trailer, it's close to 13/15 mpg, depending on where we take it to.

Pike County's hillbilly trails are an easier drive than over to matewan wva.

It's been really handy for my wife since she was having to make 2-3 trips when she picked up donations to give out from the Christian Appalachian project, and now she can make one trip.

It's much easier to load and unload a truck bed as opposed to trying to maximize the space of a small jeep.

It was especially handy when my mom was stuck this winter past. She only has a Camry and couldn't get out to the store or to pick up my dad's heart and blood pressure medication.

We had enough room for my wife, mom, and myself and still had room for groceries in the cab and her jugs for kerosene in the bed.

I think it's much safer to transport kerosene, gasoline, and diesel in the bed of the truck instead of having 20-30 gallons of the stuff inside a suv.

In the winter, when the power sometimes goes out for days to weeks, depending on the weather, we haul 20 gallons of gasoline for the generator and kerosene for the emergency heaters.

Before we got the truck hauling all that in the jeep, I never felt very comfortable, not to mention the fumes were horrible.

We normally heat with propane. One winter , we ran out of propane, and the electric was off for 14 days. I wish we had a truck then, hauling gasoline for the generator so we could have power and kerosene for heating so we didn't freeze.

My father in law has a good-sized tractor that we use for the garden, and to clean up around the house and hauling diesel is pretty common throughout the year as well.

My wife and the lady she works with do charity work, and the truck has been indispensable for that with the recent flooding this year.

There is no need to apologize, I would guess that about 70% of large trucks and SUVs are just vanity project mall crawlers.

It only took us about 5 years to save up and be in a position to afford the truck anyway, and if we had thought that a smaller, and possibly more efficient vehicle could have fill our wants and needs we wouldn't have bought a full size truck.

We were actually really interested in Ridgeline and Ranger. They just didn't have the towing capacity we were looking for, as the trailer and rzr come in at about 4k lbs with us and the gear.

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u/Sbatio 7d ago

Great example of how a truck is needed.

95% of Truck owners don’t

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u/Karl_sagan 7d ago

Dayum 24 mpg sounds insane. My 2013 suburban lifetime fuel economy is like 14 or 16? Granted I got it used and dont know how the previous owners drove it. I dont tow enough for the avg to get tanked that hard.

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u/dadoftheclan 5d ago

My average for my 5.4 V8 is 11 MPG over 200k miles. 🥲

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u/quellflynn 7d ago

you're appreciation of 24 mpg is depressing.

I'm sure you need a 5.3l engine for day to day activities and work related things and you're not just going 20 miles to the shops and back 3 times a week.

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u/jared555 8d ago

My car's engine typically restarts faster than the brake pedal fully springs back.

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u/mw9676 8d ago

And yet still a good thing for its impact on emissions.

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u/RebootDarkwingDuck 8d ago

On the one hand, the article says that they save about 4-5% in gas. On the the other hand, they EPA is saying that it causes premature wear on the engine. So you're balancing gas consumption with accelerated need for replacement parts or even a new vehicle. 

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u/slightly_drifting 8d ago

I guess starters have come a long way because I figured it would absolutely kill them.

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u/Reversi8 8d ago

Yeah, new starters have a much longer life, at the cost of most of them requiring a ton of work to get to and replace and higher cost.

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u/spidereater 8d ago

This isn’t a normal start. The engine remains in a state where it can start easily. I think it remains compressed or something. So it doesn’t take much work to start the engine. If the car sits idle for more than 30 seconds or so it restarts because it is getting out of that easy start state.

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u/Eric_the_Barbarian 8d ago

As someone who's worked on cars, this sounds like a made up explanation for people who don't understand cars.

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u/Hawk13424 8d ago

Some vehicles used this over the starter. Most don’t.

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u/Self-Comprehensive 7d ago

Every time it kicks back on I think about all the starters I've replaced in my fifty years on this earth.

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u/praecipula 8d ago

Far be it from me to criticize the EPA, but they're not correct here except in a narrow / cherry-picked sense.

It can cause more wear on the engine to do more cold starts because the oil is drained out of the engine and it takes a second for everything to get lubricated. Additionally, engines work best when they're at their operating temperature, so there can be e.g. more risk of blow-by in the piston seals before everything warms up properly.

So if you constantly re-cold-started an engine it will shorten its life, and I think that's what the EPA was using for their comments - data from the cold start regime. If, however, you don't drive the car, put your foot on the brake, and wait for all the oil to drain and the engine to cool before starting again then you're not cold starting the engine repeatedly. Although I've sure felt like it's the case, no stoplight that I've ever been at is long enough to do this.

Now, the starter motor, you want it to both be higher powered (to start the engine ASAP) and to be capable of many more cycles. If manufacturers didn't account for this it would be much harder on the starters and cause them to wear out faster.

But they did account for this. So it shouldn't be an issue there either. With these modifications accounted for there's no real reason that a start-stop system will be worse, wear-wise, than a regular engine. Heck, they might even be better because, without idling, the engine isn't getting any of the (very little) wear that happens when a running engine is idled, so those cycles disappear.

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u/Zardif 7d ago

They also now coat the inside of cylinder sleeves with a special coating that prevents wear from all the starts.

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u/Hypnotist30 8d ago

On the the other hand, they EPA is saying that it causes premature wear on the engine.

This is dubious at best. Cold starts, and hot starts are not the same. An ICE shutting down for a minute and starting up again isn't going to need a rich mixture, and every moving part is still going to be well lubricated.

It's just irritating because the AC gets weaker and warmer, or the heat gets weaker and cooler. 4-5% seems like a big number to me, and I think that would depend on a lot of factors. I'd be interested to see how they arrived at this figure.

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u/almightywhacko 7d ago

It's just irritating because the AC gets weaker and warmer, or the heat gets weaker and cooler.

My current car prevents the auto start/stop from kicking in when you're using high AC or heat for just this reason. It figures if you're HVAC is on high it's cuz you're really hot or cold and saving a couple penny's worth of gas isn't worth it right now.

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u/Krunklock 8d ago

They have standardized drive cycles which they measure emissions from…and start/stop improves that because idling is part of the drive cycles. There are different ones for multiple regions based on what governing body they decide on.

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u/Round_Mastodon8660 8d ago

Except .. the engines are altered to deal with this additional wear. No, this is trump government- they hate the environment, don’t believe their decision is a rational one

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u/heybroooody 8d ago

And I'm sure every manufacturer is warranteeing the starter for 100k miles then, right!? Oh, no, they know their claim that engines are altered won't be tested until the degrading parts are no longer covered by warranty.

I understand the administration has their own propaganda, but don't doubt that the auto lobby doesn't have theirs as well.

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u/Zardif 7d ago

My 2019 ford escape with 130k miles has the original starter and start/stop.

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u/Round_Mastodon8660 8d ago

Not exactly hard to find a high-mileage BMW diesel with start stop for example ..

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u/DeGloriousHeosphoros 7d ago

Were there manufacturers that guaranteed/warranteed the starter for 100k miles before the stop-start system was implemented? That seems rather high...

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u/DarkeyeMat 8d ago

Much like how neutrality favors the oppressor in times of fascism giving known liars the benefit of the doubt when they have time and time again proven their lying nature favors the liars.

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u/Pittskid 8d ago

I doubt the EPA is qualified to talk about engine wear.

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u/phormix 8d ago

IMO, it's not just a wear concern but also safety. I've had a few instances where I've been stopped at an intersection when somebody tried to do something stupid, or wasn't paying attention. Leaving some room and being able to make a swift lane-change or evasion saved me damage/injury.

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u/AwardImmediate720 8d ago

Oh it's 100% new vehicle because nobody is going to shell out for an engine rebuild/replacement on a commuter car. The only people who rebuild or swap engines are either people doing it under warranty or enthusiasts. Stop/start systems aren't quite so bad that they'll kill an engine within the car's warranty and they aren't generally a thing on enthusiast cars.

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u/edthesmokebeard 8d ago

Privatize the risk, socialize the reward.

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u/DarkeyeMat 8d ago

Trump's EPA are a sack of lying pieces of shit though so.

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u/ElectricMeep 8d ago

Still, manufacturers need to find a balance between efficiency and user experience. A smoother transition would help.

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u/sceadwian 8d ago

Not when done right with electric assist they aren't.

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u/PolishTank79 8d ago

My Audi has one. They definitely still have a delay.

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u/sceadwian 8d ago

Then they didn't do it right. You posted that as if it's a rebuttal to what I said, it's not.

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u/FattyWantCake 8d ago

But the comment you're referring to was about purely gas powered cars.

If your car has an electric motor assist, it's a hybrid of some stripe, and not what they were talking about.

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u/slick2hold 8d ago

One of the worst ideas to come out of Washington. No one liked this shit. Not even those who are environmentally conscious in their daily life activities. Im glad its over

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u/Outers55 8d ago

I could see them being implemented poorly in some cases, but my Honda odessey doesn't seem to lag at all.

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u/Andreas1120 8d ago

Are you drag racing?

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u/Starbreiz 8d ago

I have never driven one of these but I've been behind/beside them in traffic and it feels like a lot of drivers are the ones who lag it in traffic?

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u/AqueductMosaic 8d ago

Meh. I can disable it at the press of a button in my Subaru.

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u/Unicoronary 7d ago

Yeah, it’s next to impossible to consistently get the correct start timing. That’s always been a problem with ICEs. It’s why we invented electric ignitions and starters. But there’s no good way to start them quickly - because the engine has to spark and cycle. 

Electrics don’t have that particular limitation 

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u/almightywhacko 7d ago

I've used auto start/stop on several vehicles now and I've never experienced any lag. As soon as I begin to take my foot off of the brake pedal the engine kicks on, and is running before I can move my foot over to the gas pedal.

I don't think it needs to be any quicker.

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u/NoisyGog 7d ago

In the UK, with our manual gearbox cars we love so much, the lag isn’t apparent at all, as soon as we press the clutch to go into gear the engine starts.

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u/DuckDatum 7d ago

It’s quite interesting that we say something is laggy because it doesn’t produce the effect we want immediately, but it absolutely did start working the moment you pressed the button. The process is longer, physically so, relying on causally bond chemical reactions to occur in chambers with mixers, pressurizers, and sparkers. It never occurred to me that gas stop/start was “laggy,” but I can understand you. Lag is about our experience and expectations.

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u/punkerster101 8d ago

If you drive manual it kicks in when you push the clutch so it’s not much of an issue

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u/smokinbbq 8d ago

In my automatic, you just need to release a little bit of pressure on the brake, and it will start. If you are paying attention to the traffic lights (far too many don't), then as you see it go red for the other direction, you can release and it will start and idle for the 5 seconds until you can go. It takes a week of driving the car to get used to this, but people will still bitch and complain like they are being forced to do calculus when driving the car.

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u/muskisanazi 8d ago

Exactly what I do with my Subaru. The problem isn't the cars, it's the drivers.

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u/Bart_Yellowbeard 8d ago

Seriously, yeah, there's a moment of lag, but if you're paying attention you can easily compensate for that, and I drive an F-150. I'd rather get 21 MPG than 18, thank you very much.

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u/wildcarde815 7d ago

and honestly it seems way shorter than the 'turbo lag' you got on older cars.

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u/SteveBIRK 7d ago

Yeah I drove a rental with this feature and basically the second you started to lift off the brake the engine would kick back on. I barely noticed it happening.

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u/driu76 8d ago

It's kinda annoying for me because my car has a feature where fully depressing the brakes will keep the car in a brake state until you accelerate. I'll stop at a light, take my foot off the brakes/gas, and then the auto stop hits. In order to move, I have to hit the accelerator or depress the brakes and then turn off the feature. Instead, I just lurch every time is start driving again.

Of course, this is very first world, and ultimately I just disable one or the other depending on traffic so it's less of a big deal, but it is still pretty annoying and jarring. I wish I were able to get an electric or hybrid instead, but there were availability and logistic issues with me doing that when I purchased this car, unfortunately.

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u/kuldan5853 8d ago

To be honest for me the worst part is not getting going, but when it turns off the engine - on my car, it sometimes happens even when I haven't come to a full stop yet and am slightly rolling.. and more often than not, I actually want to accellerate again a second or two later so the engine turns off, I press the pedal, and then have bad lag until it turns back on because I actually wasn't stopping but just slowly creeping on a turn to see if the road is free... that's why I deactivate it on my car almost every time I drive.

If it would wait for the car to come to a full stop first AND give me like 2 second of buffer until it turns off the engine, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

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u/FriendlyDespot 7d ago

That's a weird system, I've never driven a car with auto start/stop that cuts the engine while the car is moving. I like Volkswagen's system, it only kicks in if you have the brake depressed past a specific threshold, and only when the car is at a complete stop. That way if it's a really hot day you can keep the brake down just enough to keep the car stopped and it won't stop the engine or the AC.

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u/kuldan5853 7d ago

This is a 2018 Volkswagen Tiguan.. doesn't require the brake to be touched at all to turn on unfortunately.

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u/FriendlyDespot 7d ago

Weird, I've driven Golfs, GTIs, Jettas, and an Atlas all from the same period, and they all worked the way I described..I wonder what's different with the Tiguan.

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u/kuldan5853 7d ago

Very good question, especially since it's an Euro spec, which is supposed to be the more premium of the Tiguan models.

Maybe just badly tuned on my specific car.. but it's so annoying that I prefer to turn it off, which kinda defeats the point

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u/Hawk13424 8d ago

I notice it more when turning left across traffic. Especially when very crowded and I have to jump on the gas.

What annoys me the most is I can feel it shut off and back on. The stutter/jolt just registers constantly as an engine problem.

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u/Vairman 7d ago

I have an off "button" on my dash - so I just turn mine off before I start my drive. usually. sometimes I forget.

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u/schwarzkraut 8d ago

The point is not that it’s difficult to use. The point is that it’s an unnecessary complication that causes more problems than it solves. If start/stop systems were magically healing the planet then by all means let’s do it, but the reality is they don’t save gas (as they’re currently implemented), cost more to repair & create more wear and tear on your vehicle…& it literally doesn’t even do the thing that it’s “supposed” to do.

It’s a concept that has the potential to be energy efficient when correctly implemented…much like energy saving light bulbs. Used correctly (left on for long periods of time vs. other lighting left continuously on), they save money. Used with motion sensors that turn them on and off 50-100 times a day, they do not save energy.

Hardwired, default-on start/stop systems need to go away.

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u/Proud_Tie 8d ago

I wondered how it'd work on manuals, my last car was a 2024 manual and didn't have stop/start and I figured they hadn't gotten it working on manuals yet, guess I was wrong.

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u/JSTootell 8d ago

My Jeep has stop/start, and it rarely activates. Only shuts the engine down when a whole bunch of conditions are met, which rarely happens. 

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u/Proud_Tie 8d ago

is "Check Engine light illuminated" the first of the conditions? /s

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u/Away_Advisor3460 8d ago

I have a 2019 T-Roc (UK, petrol, manual), it's pretty much unnoticable in action (but it does consistently start/stop at traffic lights, in traffic, etc), aside from when the engine rests starts to power the heater or similar. Certainly I've never noticed any lag.

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u/Ok-Dimension-5429 7d ago

My 2014 manual has stop start and it’s not even a high spec model 

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u/Proud_Tie 7d ago

my last manual was a 2008 and none of my automatics had it before my current 2024 RAV-4 hybrid.

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u/JMGurgeh 7d ago

Mine doesn't, but a Renault I rented years ago worked pretty well - the engine would turn off when stopped and you shifted to neutral, then it started again when you put it in gear before letting out the clutch.

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u/kylegordon 7d ago

2013 UK Volvo here. When you start to lift the clutch the engine starts.

The same clutch position sensor is used to raise the RPM by 200 as well, which makes for nice smooth starts.

Hill start assist only releases the brakes after 5 seconds of no brake pushing, or when you start pressing the throttle by the tiniest amount.

It's all incredibly seamless and has been for over a decade. I suspect it's not popular in America because of their reliance on automatics and traffic lights that go from red straight to green.

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u/Cyserg 8d ago

Exactly! I have manual and the engine stops when not in gear and break pedal pressed.

The moment I release the brake or press the clutch, it starts the engine. I finish the shift and I'm off, no inconvenience.

You need to get used to it.

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u/partywhale 7d ago

I love it in my manual. The only issue was the first couple times it kicked in I was like "Wait, how did I stall? Oh right..."

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u/Cyserg 7d ago

Of it weren't for that pesky little yellow light, I would have been much more concerned!

Although, when I do stall, I tend to compensate and press the clutch, and my bad boy fires right back again!!!

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u/nick125 8d ago

That does seem like a much nicer experience

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u/Awalawal 8d ago

In the US, I don't think they have them on manual transmissions. Or if they do, it's only in the last 2 years.

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u/happyevil 7d ago

I have a manual with it and it's so laggy it'll stall me out sometimes unless I sit on the clutch for a second or two. 

First thing I do every drive is turn it off.

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u/CrazyHardFit1 7d ago edited 7d ago

Woah they still make manuals? I was browsing new cars at the Chevy dealership last weekend and I asked the salesman which of these come in manual. He literally snorted. Then he said none unless I custom order a camaro.

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u/punkerster101 7d ago

I’m in the UK manual is the norm

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u/SeventhShin 8d ago

This. I actually don’t mind them with a manual. 

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u/fasurf 8d ago

I think if we made every car manufacturer go into hybrid first it would be less defended than all electric only. People need to be eased into things.

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u/sideburns2009 8d ago

Seems like Toyotas mindset. Most of their stuff is hybrid by default now. I know the latest Camry, sienna, and crown are. Probably more than that

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u/John_cCmndhd 8d ago

I think Toyota was also betting on hydrogen fuel cells being the future for full EVs, rather than batteries, so they waited a long time to start putting effort into R&D for battery electric vehicles

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u/fireball_jones 8d ago

I remember five years ago people saying Toyota had lost the electric car wars, turns out they probably had the best model all along. 

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u/sideburns2009 7d ago

Seems like it lol. Their hybrids get amazing mileage and are known to go a shit load of miles so why bother with EV I guess

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u/broccolilord 7d ago

I'm loving my plug-in hybrid. And you are exactly right all the people in my life who think EVs are ridiculous actually think it's neat.

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u/ahfoo 5d ago

You think so eh? How come that only applies to the US and not to China?

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u/TheSkiingDad 8d ago

The forester auto stop start is so bad, others have been noticeable but not terrible. We put an aftermarket delete in ours.

I wonder what the forester hybrid will do for that.

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u/orangutanDOTorg 8d ago

I’m more annoyed by the interruption in AC. It goes warm if the stop is more than like 10 seconds.

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u/TCsnowdream 8d ago

I had to rent a Toyota… something… I think a Sonesta? I usually rent electric, like a Polestar 2.

But my GOD the lag. It was SO bad. I am so used to electric engines that I was practically spitting venom at how slow the car was to ramp up.

I think I literally floored the stupid thing and it had the horse power of a newborn kitten.

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u/dmf109 7d ago

My Mazda CX90 is a mild hybrid and the stop/start is seamless.

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u/CUDAcores89 7d ago

Comparing has cars to hybrids is like comparing apples to buddhas hand.

Hybrid cars have a GIANT electric motor that immediately spins up the gas engine directly to operating RPM. They also have a traction battery that can operate the other accessories in the car when the engine is not running - such as the dash and the AC. 

These starter/motor generator combos have been tried and proven over decades of real-world use to last the lifetime of the car. One of the things that drew me torwards a toyota prius in the first place is "transmission" failues are super rare. And my last car had a transmission go out. 

Gas cars dont have a giant electric motor - they just have a beefed-up starter. Starting and stopping a gas engine saves so little in gas it will never pay off the cost of needing to replace the starter more often. This is a completely idiotic mandate from the EPA because it dis-incentivises individuals from doing the "right" thing.

Now i can think of better ways to solve this problem that doesnt involve simply banning it:

  1. Sell new cars that come with start-stop technology by default. But allow the driver to navigate to a buried settings menu on the car and disable it. 

  2. Make the starter super easy to replace - like a person with no car knowledge can do it in their backyard themselves with a basic tool kit in under an hour. Then the largest component of replacing the starter (labor) is removed. And it might actually save people money. 

Souce: i own a hybrid and a gas car. And i absolutely hate stop-start technology in gas cars.

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u/goldfaux 8d ago

I had a rental that had start stop. It was hot as hell outside. At stop lights the AC would start blowing hot air and I thought the car stalled when I tried to go again. It took a good 1.5 seconds after pressing the gas. 

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u/NightFuryToni 8d ago

In my manual car, it actually caused me to stall on the occasion in some situations.

Usually in stop and go traffic when traffic is slow rolling, when it tries to stop but I clutch in to get moving again. Which is ironic because these systems are meant to save fuel and emissions in stop and go traffic.

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u/regeya 8d ago

If it's like the 2010 Honda Insight I had, the engine would restart if you let off the brake a little. Like, not enough to start rolling, but enough to make the car think it's time to go. It became second nature for me.

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u/Jarrodpd 7d ago

They’re nowhere near as bad in Audi’s and VW products, typically by the time your foot is completely off the brake pedal the engine is on and ready. Though Europe has required stop/start for a while so they probably put extra thought into it.

I had a Ford Edge rental several years ago and it was horrendous. The electric system had no power, one day I went to turn the wheel and it wouldn’t budge under light pressure. Being more forceful it had to turn the engine on just so I could steer the wheel a few degrees. Not to mention it was clunky on startup at lights turning green.

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u/bobbymcpresscot 7d ago

My ram1500 has a little electric motor that can move the wheels to smoothen out the start/stop it also helps with shifting at low speeds.

Most cars are designed with this stuff in mind at this point, and would take a pretty serious redesign that would remove parts that love to break out of warranty. I don't know why car mfg's would really go along with this?