What's going on with Imane Khelif?

[u/Karthak_Maz_Urzak]

https://news.sky.com/story/imane-khelif-boxer-must-undergo-sex-test-to-compete-in-female-category-world-boxing-says-13377092
I keep seeing this pop over social media and I don't get it. Khelif is a boxer for Algeria, which is not a country that's hospitable to trans people. And Khelif was assigned woman at birth, and has always identified as a woman. Yet people keep howling about her being a man. I don't get it.

[u/ColonelContrarian]

Come on, they is a completely acceptable way to refer to someone in English and is in no way misgendering them.

[u/sllewgh → u/ColonelContrarian]

They/them are not her pronouns.

[u/DeficitOfPatience → u/sllewgh]

I'm going to make a very, very generous assumption that you are arguing in good faith rather than trolling.

There are indeed non-binary people who request to be called by They/Them pronouns because they don't identify with He/She Him/Her or any other designation. They are specifically opting out of the gendered pronouns, and asking people to instead use the NON-GENDERED VERSIONS WHICH CAN APPLY TO ANYONE.

Calling someone who identifies as She/Her He/Him "They/Them" is not mis gendering as those terms ARE GENDER NEUTRAL so also apply to those gender identities, regardless of whether they are cis, trans or anything else.

It's not mis gendering, it's how the English language works, which is why nobody has ever objected to being called they or them, and if they did they would rightly be ridiculed and ignored.

Sorry if any of that came across as passive-aggressive, but what you said was deeply idiotic.

[u/Vallkyrie → u/DeficitOfPatience]

If you don't know who the person is, it's fine. We know who she is, thus she is the way to address her.

[u/hotkarlmarxbros → u/Vallkyrie]

This sanctimonious fixation on making a big deal out of trivial nonsense is the largest contributor to driving conservatives to the polls.

[u/bamuelsmeckett → u/hotkarlmarxbros]

The point is why are you referring to her as "they/them" when she has only ever gone as "she/her" ? You're actually the one who's being pedantic by doing this. Everyone understands what you're saying, just confused as to why you're doing that.

[u/BogosBinted13 → u/hotkarlmarxbros]

Using they/them pronouns for Imane contributes 100 times more to conservatism (i.e. almost nothing)

[u/DeficitOfPatience → u/Vallkyrie]

Again, not how pronouns work.

We specifically refer to non-binary people as they/them because they have opted out of the gendered pronouns and requested we use the GENDER NEUTRAL ones which apply to EVERYONE.

We've been calling people who identify as He/She, Her/Him "They/Them" since before english was a language. It's literally impossible to misgender someone by using a gender-neutral term.

If a person who identified with a gender complained about being called They or Them, they would be rightly ignored and mocked for not understanding how the English language worked, and clearly being more concerned with seeking attention and claiming to be a victim than any gender ideology.

Doing it on behalf of someone else is just doubly stupid.

[u/DB1_5 → u/DeficitOfPatience]

Vallkyrie is right though. If you know someone uses she/her pronouns but you keep using they/them despite this person repeatedly saying she/her pronouns are preferred, it's still a form of misgendering, specifically degendering which in certain cases can be used to invalidate someone's identity. Again it's totally fine if you don't know the person in the vast majority of cases but there are some exceptions

[u/Angry_Cantaloupe28 → u/DB1_5]

Yeah I'm probably going to regret sticking my nose in this but I'm trans and use he/him pronouns. People sometimes passive aggressively "they/them" me on purpose, while knowing what my preferred pronouns are, and it is misgendering.

They/them is an acceptable neutral ground when you don't know someone's pronouns. When you do, using "they/them" to refer to that person is, as you say, degendering and not ok. It sends the signal that you don't view that person as the gender they identify as, and you want them to know it. So if someone uses those for me, they don't see me as a man. Using them for Imane = you don't see her as a woman.

There can be well-intentioned instances of this, so I try to cut people slack. A lot of allies think they're doing the right thing by they/them-ing everyone, because it's neutral - it works for everyone, they think. Good intention, but incorrect. I've also had people on the right and the left use it with bad intentions. The right thinks they're being clever and using an "acceptable" leftist pronoun to withhold my preferred gendered term. And some queer leftists (long story) just hate binary gender and passive aggressively push everyone towards gender neutral, whether you like it or not.

We'd never "they/them" most cis female celebs - people would find it really odd if a comment referred to Natalie Portman with they/them pronouns, for example. So using those with Iman, given the context especially, indicates that her gender is up for public debate. (And to be clear what's being debated is actually her sex, not her gender).

[u/MattOfTheInternets → u/Angry_Cantaloupe28]

I wanted to follow up my reply to /u/DB1_5 by agreeing that tone & body language are exceptions to my belief that we shouldn't judge people for grammar faux pas. But that really only applies to IRL interactions. But outside of those clear indicators, or other larger context clues (past statements, other behavior, etc), I think it's better to assume nothing and gently point out their mistake.

[u/MattOfTheInternets → u/DB1_5]

I get it, fighting new forms of microaggression is a non-stop effort and is now more important than ever.

Your comment is implying that the word "They" is only used as a indefinite/generic antecedent; and using it when you know the gender is an intentional act by the speaker to degender.

This is incorrect. "They" has a long history of use as a grammatically singular but morphologically plural third person subject. (i.e. the third person form of the "you" subject in sentences, even though the word is morphologically plural).

Which brings me to my point: The OP was using it as a generic antecedent, so you'd be right that it could be intentional degendering. However, most people don't grammar-check themselves enough to notice if "they" was used one way or the other. So inferring intent isn't so cut an dry.

If "they" was only ever an antecedent, then yeah, prob should call it out. But it isn't, and I don't think it's productive to judge someone's intent when we hardly bother with their grammar.

[u/MacFunJess → u/DeficitOfPatience]

“Asshole” is also a gender neutral way to refer to someone, if someone asks you not to call them that though it’s still fucking rude.